When is the proper time to breed
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Okay, first off you have to do your research or you should not be breeding, 2nd you have to do testing on both parents please don't breed just to breed. Hips, Elbows, Eyes and some blood work at the minuim... It takes a lot of Knowledge to be a good breeder and you need a good Vet to work with also.
Once you do that then you can think about breeding but you shouldn't until you do those things. Not trying to be mean just trying to save you a lot of headaches and heartache.
Once you do that then you can think about breeding but you shouldn't until you do those things. Not trying to be mean just trying to save you a lot of headaches and heartache.
I agree, although I feel like sometimes these questions are discounted thus creating more of a problem.
Why not be more informative and just answer the questions? The forum can be much more helpful when you search for something and see an answer as opposed to people constantly saying, "I'm not trying to be mean, but breeding is a lot of work and if you have questions you shouldn't be doing it". There is WAY too much of this in here.
This is a collaboration - and most people in here believe that by sharing and helping each other, we further the doodle community as opposed to hindering it.
We all agree that we want people to do the right things, but come on.
Can of worms - open.
Why not be more informative and just answer the questions? The forum can be much more helpful when you search for something and see an answer as opposed to people constantly saying, "I'm not trying to be mean, but breeding is a lot of work and if you have questions you shouldn't be doing it". There is WAY too much of this in here.
This is a collaboration - and most people in here believe that by sharing and helping each other, we further the doodle community as opposed to hindering it.
We all agree that we want people to do the right things, but come on.
Can of worms - open.
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JohnathonD........i do have a question for you and others either been breeding and/or new to breeding. Does anyone consult their vets?
does anyone buy or go to library and take out books to read?
OR let's now serve out some of those yummy worms.
What gives anyone the right to get upset if the answer of a question isn't answered the way you expect
2.Johnathon you just bred a litter.........can you give zoeybear1 a proper answer????????
3. also i know zoey is trying to learn but perhaps reading a bit more and finding out before breeding is the way to learn.
or maybe i am oldfashioned in the fact that i do tons of research, read till my eyeballs hang down to my knees, and then ask a question if i am still confused.
OK here's a way to get an answer quickly
here's a search i did and found several answers in seconds
http://www.google.com/search?q=when+to+ ... lz=1I7SUNA
i have done soem hard earned research the past year AFTER all this i might come here to ask a question for curiousity sake or comparison sake
but i do NOT expect anyone to take years of experience and hand it over to make my life easier.
Genetics: reviewed and learnd on own and i'll share some but NOT all info as i want others to do homework and challenge my brain with their thinking.
BREEDING........OMG some nights my eyes were burning and i also have spent 15mos with a doodle breeder as well.
STUDDING with collection etc...........on my own here
TESTING..........tons of research , tons of calls to vets and penn hip vets along with calling OFA
Contracts: my OWN work as if i am to have a business i need to have a business and marketing plan
POINT: i found your answer a bit defensive and YES we all try to help
but maybe like a good teacher we ask the pupil to study a bit and then come back and ask again.
Lastly ........there are OVER a year's worth of posts on this forum by many breeders and possibly this topic has been discussed numerous times
and a search may provide NOT only the answers but additional info on breeding and whelping too.
Zoey is in no way against you honey........i was just trying to make a point as when to exactly breed a bitch in heat there are differring answers though here's one
does anyone buy or go to library and take out books to read?
OR let's now serve out some of those yummy worms.
What gives anyone the right to get upset if the answer of a question isn't answered the way you expect
2.Johnathon you just bred a litter.........can you give zoeybear1 a proper answer????????
3. also i know zoey is trying to learn but perhaps reading a bit more and finding out before breeding is the way to learn.
or maybe i am oldfashioned in the fact that i do tons of research, read till my eyeballs hang down to my knees, and then ask a question if i am still confused.
OK here's a way to get an answer quickly
here's a search i did and found several answers in seconds
http://www.google.com/search?q=when+to+ ... lz=1I7SUNA
i have done soem hard earned research the past year AFTER all this i might come here to ask a question for curiousity sake or comparison sake
but i do NOT expect anyone to take years of experience and hand it over to make my life easier.
Genetics: reviewed and learnd on own and i'll share some but NOT all info as i want others to do homework and challenge my brain with their thinking.
BREEDING........OMG some nights my eyes were burning and i also have spent 15mos with a doodle breeder as well.
STUDDING with collection etc...........on my own here
TESTING..........tons of research , tons of calls to vets and penn hip vets along with calling OFA
Contracts: my OWN work as if i am to have a business i need to have a business and marketing plan
POINT: i found your answer a bit defensive and YES we all try to help
but maybe like a good teacher we ask the pupil to study a bit and then come back and ask again.
Lastly ........there are OVER a year's worth of posts on this forum by many breeders and possibly this topic has been discussed numerous times
and a search may provide NOT only the answers but additional info on breeding and whelping too.
Zoey is in no way against you honey........i was just trying to make a point as when to exactly breed a bitch in heat there are differring answers though here's one
OK anyone else care to eat some worms with me hahaa
Talk about defensive...
Firstly, the notion that I wouldn't know when breeding happens is quite silly - considering a successful litter and all.
Secondly, the point that I was making was that EVERY single question seems to warrant a response of how difficult it is and how only those who read books are adequately prepared. (by the way, I don't think she was asking for your years of hard-earned knowledge by way of your endless reading - this isn't something unique or difficult to find - unlike in depth explanations regarding temperature drops, coat predictions, etc - which, Zoey, you will find)
Does it really seem advantageous to discuss this and muddy up all the waters on such a regular basis - there are sticky posts and other items all over here that gives a prospective breeder the true picture, trials and tribulations of breeding - maybe you're years of research could have been cut down if there were clearer paths.
Firstly, the notion that I wouldn't know when breeding happens is quite silly - considering a successful litter and all.
Secondly, the point that I was making was that EVERY single question seems to warrant a response of how difficult it is and how only those who read books are adequately prepared. (by the way, I don't think she was asking for your years of hard-earned knowledge by way of your endless reading - this isn't something unique or difficult to find - unlike in depth explanations regarding temperature drops, coat predictions, etc - which, Zoey, you will find)
Does it really seem advantageous to discuss this and muddy up all the waters on such a regular basis - there are sticky posts and other items all over here that gives a prospective breeder the true picture, trials and tribulations of breeding - maybe you're years of research could have been cut down if there were clearer paths.
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Johnathan i don't breed dams so i can't answer the above question
but i however DID provide an answer via links and a quote
and I thought since you are a breeder with successful litters that you could have provided an answer to zoey. or any others that might read this posting down the line when they conduct a search to learn just such a question.
I understood your point but i guess it came across boldly? then again on the internet one cannot see facial expressions and hear voice inflections so the typed word can lose it's true meanings at time and my point was
if gracie didnt' answer i thought possibly you could.
I only know from what i've read and seeing the natural breedings of my breeders dogs which occurs more than one time.
I ONLY have a spayed female in my house
For me when i see a female backing up with the tail held high,
ok that is one time that just may be right.
otherwise i only have a spayed female so i can't count the days
and reading is the START to learning, even in schools to get degrees many have to read first , then ask, then do trial and error thus leading to experience
Johnathon .......how did you learn to breed ? as many i know either grew up with it or did much research and yes asked a ton of questions from other breeders
and the rest is from trial and error of a daily breeding business with help from others more experienced.
I am not here to argue rather to learn like many others and when i can i share. breeding bitches in heat is not my area, whelping is.
but i however DID provide an answer via links and a quote
and I thought since you are a breeder with successful litters that you could have provided an answer to zoey. or any others that might read this posting down the line when they conduct a search to learn just such a question.
I understood your point but i guess it came across boldly? then again on the internet one cannot see facial expressions and hear voice inflections so the typed word can lose it's true meanings at time and my point was
if gracie didnt' answer i thought possibly you could.
I only know from what i've read and seeing the natural breedings of my breeders dogs which occurs more than one time.
I ONLY have a spayed female in my house
For me when i see a female backing up with the tail held high,
ok that is one time that just may be right.
otherwise i only have a spayed female so i can't count the days
and reading is the START to learning, even in schools to get degrees many have to read first , then ask, then do trial and error thus leading to experience
Johnathon .......how did you learn to breed ? as many i know either grew up with it or did much research and yes asked a ton of questions from other breeders
and the rest is from trial and error of a daily breeding business with help from others more experienced.
I am not here to argue rather to learn like many others and when i can i share. breeding bitches in heat is not my area, whelping is.
My mom used to sayJonathonD said:
"If you can't say something nice....don't say anything"
Jon, how about just answering Zoeybear1 instead of lecturing other experienced breeders? That's a choice you made.
Ok, I'll start: first of all, your vet can help you honey with the whole cycle thing, but as Annmarie has pointed out there are lots of threads and posts that could help you in your learning too, about specifically understanding a dog's estrus cycle. And of course no two dogs are the same so when a bitch is fertile is really specific and nobody can really say for sure about your dog.
Is there somewhere that you have given anyone an introduction to you and your Doodle and your plans to breed her? Do you have an agreement with your breeder who sold you Zoeybear that lets you breed her? Is this all covered somewhere? If so I missed it.
Yeah - Maureen, and everyone else - I suppose by heading down the path that we were led down may have been remiss. I'm surprised we're not asking the FIRST POSTING why she didn't answer - Oh, wait a minute, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I DID. Therefore, you are all doing the same thing I did.
Thanks.
This wouldn't be the first time an initial topic went in a completely different direction.
Also - I'll have you ALL know, I have received four private messages and/or emails (and it hasn't even been 24 hours), three of which are people who post quite often, are breeders and I'm sure you all respect, who have told me congrats and thanks for speaking up because they all feel the same way. (Don't worry guys, I won't disclose names).
Thanks.
This wouldn't be the first time an initial topic went in a completely different direction.
Also - I'll have you ALL know, I have received four private messages and/or emails (and it hasn't even been 24 hours), three of which are people who post quite often, are breeders and I'm sure you all respect, who have told me congrats and thanks for speaking up because they all feel the same way. (Don't worry guys, I won't disclose names).
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there's always two sides to every coin which is why it makes life interesting and enables us opportunities to learn.
if we all agreed all the time......wouldn't life be boring?
and if anyone finds out which came 1st the chicken or the egg,
can you PM me please
if we all agreed all the time......wouldn't life be boring?
and if anyone finds out which came 1st the chicken or the egg,
can you PM me please
My reply was actually to the second comment - I suppose I could have started a new thread altogether, or I could have just chosen another place this has happened. I definitely wouldn't advocate a child to be breeding - ha! I didn't notice the history with regard to this aspect - point taken.
Further - just because something is a differing opinion doesn't make it "not nice". Suggesting one is defensive is hardly "not nice".
My complaint might be the simple fact that differing opinions/questions are talked about as if they are fostered and helpful, although when looking at what goes on, it's not the case. Doesn't the fact that people are afraid to ask the right questions to the "right" people lead us to worry about the root of the problem?
Further - just because something is a differing opinion doesn't make it "not nice". Suggesting one is defensive is hardly "not nice".
My complaint might be the simple fact that differing opinions/questions are talked about as if they are fostered and helpful, although when looking at what goes on, it's not the case. Doesn't the fact that people are afraid to ask the right questions to the "right" people lead us to worry about the root of the problem?
For those of you who have PM'd Jonathan with congratulatory notes, I sincerely wish you would share your opinions with us. If we are offensive toward you, I would like to know how and if so, I would like to apologize or clarify. You are certainly entitled to PM each other and to complain about the advice given but it isn't very helpful or productive.
Still, whether or not you have a million positive PMs, Jonathan, I wish to go PUBLICLY on record as being very offended by your comments and my offense stems from your attack on Linda who has been at this forum, helping me and others for YEARS. She has guided me and helped me in my breeding program.
Helping someone is not the same thing as giving blind advice without questioning someone's motives for breeding.
Many of us have been working, literally, for years trying to help educate people interested in breeding. So, it is a bit frustrating when someone comes on the forum, with all of the available information, and asks a question that we have already answered a bunch of times. Still, we try to read between the lines and decide whether or not we can feel good about helping a particular person learn how to become a breeder. It is OUR choice and we base our decisions on many factors. You don't have to agree with it, but it would be professional courtesy to make a polite first attempt to question a response that has been given.
Linda may not have answered as you felt she should, but she did answer. No one serving on this forum promises to be an encyclopedic reference desk for new breeders.
Now, that would not be the only reason that we don't give detailed information. Off hand, I would say that we are not here to promote breeding (to help breeders, yes, but not to promote breeding when someone blindly comes along and wants to get into breeding without taking rudimentary steps to find out what it is about). This is not a responsible thing to do.
Still, if someone is truly interested in breeding, they will come to us with very serious questions and when we are not comfortable answering them, wholesale, we send a private message and invite the person to contact us, even giving our phone number, if we believe that the person is seriously interested in learning.
I don't wish to be rude to Zoey on this thread, she is a sweet girl and I will apologize for what I am about to say...but when someone is thinking of breeding and doesn't even know when, within the breeding cycle, to mate the dogs, and when this is the first question about breeding...well, it is reasonable to believe that this person is not ready to be a breeder!
Once someone has completed the basic research, we do help...but before we jump in to help, we ask questions. We want to know that we are helping a breeder who has purchased breeding rights from their breeder. So often people buy intact animals on a spay/neuter contract and ignore that contract and breed the dog. We do not want to help that type of breeder...so, yes, we ask questions first...like, "Do you have breeding rights?" "Are you prepared to test your animals?" "What do you know about breeding?"
Why? Because these things are basic. They are questions easily answered by someone who has done research.
Too many people are trying to jump onto the "get rich by breeding Doodle" bandwagon and they need a reality check...no one in this business that I know of is rich...in fact, many are operating in the red.
I don't believe it is responsible to answer breeding questions without addressing the important moral obligation issues first.
You may disagree, that is fine...but to make a blanket attack on us because we do not publicly post everything we know about breeding is not only rude, but very inaccurate. If you were to check the archives, you would probably find answers to every type of breeding question.
When you have put as much information into this forum as Linda, Diane, Ann Marie and others, then we may be more tolerant of your attitude...but until then, when you seem to have no clue as to how much these people have given to the forum readers, your attack seems insensitive and certainly unwarranted.
Finally, I must say that I reviewed your posts to see how often you pitch in to answer important breeding questions...I found none. What I did find was a lot of self promoting of your litters, your puppies and your program.
As you have mentioned there are many highlighted sticky notes placed prominently to explain the rules of this forum. Maybe you should go back and read them before you bash people who have a history in this forum for helping.
Still, whether or not you have a million positive PMs, Jonathan, I wish to go PUBLICLY on record as being very offended by your comments and my offense stems from your attack on Linda who has been at this forum, helping me and others for YEARS. She has guided me and helped me in my breeding program.
Helping someone is not the same thing as giving blind advice without questioning someone's motives for breeding.
Many of us have been working, literally, for years trying to help educate people interested in breeding. So, it is a bit frustrating when someone comes on the forum, with all of the available information, and asks a question that we have already answered a bunch of times. Still, we try to read between the lines and decide whether or not we can feel good about helping a particular person learn how to become a breeder. It is OUR choice and we base our decisions on many factors. You don't have to agree with it, but it would be professional courtesy to make a polite first attempt to question a response that has been given.
Linda may not have answered as you felt she should, but she did answer. No one serving on this forum promises to be an encyclopedic reference desk for new breeders.
Now, that would not be the only reason that we don't give detailed information. Off hand, I would say that we are not here to promote breeding (to help breeders, yes, but not to promote breeding when someone blindly comes along and wants to get into breeding without taking rudimentary steps to find out what it is about). This is not a responsible thing to do.
Still, if someone is truly interested in breeding, they will come to us with very serious questions and when we are not comfortable answering them, wholesale, we send a private message and invite the person to contact us, even giving our phone number, if we believe that the person is seriously interested in learning.
I don't wish to be rude to Zoey on this thread, she is a sweet girl and I will apologize for what I am about to say...but when someone is thinking of breeding and doesn't even know when, within the breeding cycle, to mate the dogs, and when this is the first question about breeding...well, it is reasonable to believe that this person is not ready to be a breeder!
Once someone has completed the basic research, we do help...but before we jump in to help, we ask questions. We want to know that we are helping a breeder who has purchased breeding rights from their breeder. So often people buy intact animals on a spay/neuter contract and ignore that contract and breed the dog. We do not want to help that type of breeder...so, yes, we ask questions first...like, "Do you have breeding rights?" "Are you prepared to test your animals?" "What do you know about breeding?"
Why? Because these things are basic. They are questions easily answered by someone who has done research.
Too many people are trying to jump onto the "get rich by breeding Doodle" bandwagon and they need a reality check...no one in this business that I know of is rich...in fact, many are operating in the red.
I don't believe it is responsible to answer breeding questions without addressing the important moral obligation issues first.
You may disagree, that is fine...but to make a blanket attack on us because we do not publicly post everything we know about breeding is not only rude, but very inaccurate. If you were to check the archives, you would probably find answers to every type of breeding question.
When you have put as much information into this forum as Linda, Diane, Ann Marie and others, then we may be more tolerant of your attitude...but until then, when you seem to have no clue as to how much these people have given to the forum readers, your attack seems insensitive and certainly unwarranted.
Finally, I must say that I reviewed your posts to see how often you pitch in to answer important breeding questions...I found none. What I did find was a lot of self promoting of your litters, your puppies and your program.
As you have mentioned there are many highlighted sticky notes placed prominently to explain the rules of this forum. Maybe you should go back and read them before you bash people who have a history in this forum for helping.
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Is there anything in Zoeybear's post that says she was going to breed anything? It looks to me like she was just asking a simple question, requiring a simple answer. Or no response. But jeepers, this thread has taken on a life of its own.
No, I am not one that PMd Jonathon.
No, I am not one that PMd Jonathon.
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Him either. :wink:
Ok....I thought I remembered something on this....she posted this on three different categories at the same time, and yes she is either in HS or younger. Other postings were responded to......
http://labradoodle-dogs.net/forums/view ... ght=#48151
http://labradoodle-dogs.net/forums/view ... ght=#48150
A lot of us who were active on the forum at this time realized that her puppy was just that....a puppy, and that she was very young. Her puppy was 17 weeks old a month before she posted this.
I'm sorry this turned into a big fiasco.....but this original post was from August, and if anyone who was here then with a problem on the response, or lack there of...why wait til now to voice your opinion?? Just curious......
Also, it didn't stop her from posting if you check her postings after this
http://labradoodle-dogs.net/forums/view ... ght=#48151
http://labradoodle-dogs.net/forums/view ... ght=#48150
A lot of us who were active on the forum at this time realized that her puppy was just that....a puppy, and that she was very young. Her puppy was 17 weeks old a month before she posted this.
I'm sorry this turned into a big fiasco.....but this original post was from August, and if anyone who was here then with a problem on the response, or lack there of...why wait til now to voice your opinion?? Just curious......
Also, it didn't stop her from posting if you check her postings after this
Hi Vicky...
No, Zoeybear didn't ask for breeding help, only an answer to her question...and it is possible, I suppose, that there was nothing more to it (although it begs the question, why ask?) still, the post from Zoeybear was dormant for a very long time until Jonathan decided to blindside Linda for her response.
Considering that Linda has been the backbone of this forum (along with Diane) I felt that, as a long-time benefactor to Linda's guidance, I wanted to stand up for her AND I felt that it was necessary.
I am sorry if this offended you or anyone else reading the posts.
No, Zoeybear didn't ask for breeding help, only an answer to her question...and it is possible, I suppose, that there was nothing more to it (although it begs the question, why ask?) still, the post from Zoeybear was dormant for a very long time until Jonathan decided to blindside Linda for her response.
Considering that Linda has been the backbone of this forum (along with Diane) I felt that, as a long-time benefactor to Linda's guidance, I wanted to stand up for her AND I felt that it was necessary.
I am sorry if this offended you or anyone else reading the posts.
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Hi Jac, I didn't notice the dates until you mentioned it. I don't know why Jonathon brought it up now either.
I also remember way back, and there were a lot of questions asked from budding breeders back then too. However, I don't remember the answers having the same tone as what I have been reading lately. (Not Linda's particularly but answers in general)
I have also noticed several new breeders posting that have bred litters and have not yet had their breeding stock tested, etc.. That is very frustrating, so I do understand the breeders' response. I just think there may be a hair trigger on the response is all. In the Zoeybear example, perhaps asking if she was intending to breed, or similar conversation before assuming that was the intent, and launching into the "speech" :wink: might have a friendlier reception.
Just my thoughts on all this.
I also remember way back, and there were a lot of questions asked from budding breeders back then too. However, I don't remember the answers having the same tone as what I have been reading lately. (Not Linda's particularly but answers in general)
I have also noticed several new breeders posting that have bred litters and have not yet had their breeding stock tested, etc.. That is very frustrating, so I do understand the breeders' response. I just think there may be a hair trigger on the response is all. In the Zoeybear example, perhaps asking if she was intending to breed, or similar conversation before assuming that was the intent, and launching into the "speech" :wink: might have a friendlier reception.
Just my thoughts on all this.
Thanks, Vicky - well said - there has been a change of tone even since I've been around the forums. To be honest, I don't even know how I stumbled upon this post. I didn't realize it was that old until someone pointed that out. Either way, I stand by my opinions and was happy to find out I wasn't the only one who felt the way I did. (For all we know, this person was posting because they were afraid of an accidental breeding - or attempting to avoid this, etc.)
It's clearly an agree-to-disagree situation - which I'm completely fine with. I didn't expect open arms on this one. Truth be told, we all like doing what's right and from most of what I read, many of us agree on proper practices and do similar things regarding whelping, testing, etc. Except for those darned dew claws and that pesky Australian Doodle v. American question kidding - stay on topic.
It's clearly an agree-to-disagree situation - which I'm completely fine with. I didn't expect open arms on this one. Truth be told, we all like doing what's right and from most of what I read, many of us agree on proper practices and do similar things regarding whelping, testing, etc. Except for those darned dew claws and that pesky Australian Doodle v. American question
kidding - stay on topic.1 - 20 of 21 Posts
