Labradoodle Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
OK I have a dilema. Ok, we sold one of our puppies to a real sweet girl who is in college. She has 2 roommates and one has an older pug that was not at all receptive of the new puppy. After a week the girl has decided that she simply can not keep the puppy. She does not have the time and the other dog is not happy with the new addition. She is very sad, but knows the sooner she gives the pup back to us the sooner we could possibly find it a new home.
We have a re-home policy in our contract that states if for any reason the new owner is unable to care for their new puppy we will find it a new home. We are picking her up tomorrow.
Now for the hard part...how much, if any do we refund her?? She did sign the contract and has not mentioned a refund. I would love any advice that you all could give. I am torn what to do???? :?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,366 Posts
No longer than she has had the pup I would do a full refund for what I resell the pup for once I rehomed the pup. So if I sold the pup for the same price I would refund her the same price. Some might not agree but I tend to try and be as fair as I can to people. If she had kept the pup longer then maybe I would keep some of the money but not after a week.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,740 Posts
Im so sorry for the puppy

I would not refund her anything rite now

the pup will have to be quarantined for 10days ,(around no other pups)
and then you can try to sell it
i charge i board charge for the time it takes to rehome the pup
as well as any vet charges i have until the pup is sold
bringing a pup back into your facility is opening a huge can of worms that you could pay for in the long run,, you have no idea what this pup has been thru or what it has been exposed to

she really should have considered all this before puppy was placed, this is so unfair to that pup, and to you
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Well, this is definitely one of those situations where we should have followed our gut instinct! The girl was so sweet and seemed so in love with the pup, but mother and I both had reservations.
I know they lived in a home with a fenced in back yard. They had an older dog in the home. I am taking the puppy to my house so it will not be at my mothers at all. We still have 1 puppy at her house that will not fly out until the 3rd. We are taking it to the vet 1st thing Tuesday morning. The puppy did see the vet while it was with her per our contract. He said she was in perfect health.
These are 2 extreme answers. i agree with Gracielou, I just do not think I could sleep knowing I kept the money, but we are talking about a lot of extra expense for the puppy which after I received the deposit had lots of interest. This is a tough one for me!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
331 Posts
I wouldn't blame her so much, Nancy. No one can anticipate how another dog is going to take in another dog. I'm sure she would have made the time if the pug had accepted the pup, but given that the pug hasn't, it just makes the time crunch more difficult, and adds another excuse to rationalize giving the pup away.

If it were me, as a college student, any refund would be more than expected. But I'm not a breeder, so I'm not sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,836 Posts
As a buyer, I would not dream of asking for a refund on a puppy I couldn't keep because I didn't have time for it or because another dog in my home didn't like the puppy.

Since it is not the breeders fault that the pup is being returned, I don't think the buyer should expect a refund.

Getting a dog is a huge commitment and sadly some people don't think about the time factor, they just think "cute puppy".

I think if I were to refund it would be a partial amount ,the amount left after you have covered all your expenses for taking care of the puppy until you find it a new home which could take you a few days or a few months, that's my thoughts but I can't say for sure as I'm not in that position, but I do think it's wrong for the buyer to ask for a refund when there is nothing wrong with the puppy.

You are taking a dog back into your home that you haven't had control over, I would definitely be taking the pup to the Vet to make sure it's ok, puppies can contract communicable diseases very fast and you want to make sure it's healthy and also that you don't put your dog in any harms way.

Ultimately, you have to do what feels right for you - I wish you the best in find the pup a new home and hope the pup is healthy
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,918 Posts
I have to say I agree with Mary. I would consider refunding the price you could get from this puppy when you resell him/her, but I wouldn't refund her right now. If you can resell this puppy for the same price then I would consider giving a full refund. Maybe this is harsh but I don't think you should take a loss for this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,154 Posts
lmtoth2 said:
I have to say I agree with Mary. I would consider refunding the price you could get from this puppy when you resell him/her, but I wouldn't refund her right now.
I agree with this for the most part, but I'd also deduct the cost of caring for the puppy until the time she's sold again. It could get expensive if there is a problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,358 Posts
The puppy did see the vet while it was with her per our contract. He said she was in perfect health.
These are 2 extreme answers. i agree with Gracielou, I just do not think I could sleep knowing I kept the money, but we are talking about a lot of extra expense for the puppy which after I received the deposit had lots of interest. This is a tough one for me![/quote]

Based on this experience will your future contracts read differently? Lot's of breeders advertise they will re home their own pups but they never mention the fees associated with it! I think it responsible to spell this out to save yourself all this soul searching which Is not easy. Nancy's approach seems reasonable but again I ask is this spelled out in the contract or is it an additional surprise to an owner who must give up a pup for whatever reason only to be socked with boarding fees. I'm playing :twisted: advocate here from the consumer angle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,336 Posts
My breeder had to do this once and she asked the person who was giving the pup back as to how much she wanted to recoup from her monies, within reason.
The person said half so that is what they sold the puppy for and my breeder gave her the money.


This person gave back the pup after one month.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,740 Posts
Actually as well as i screen people this problem doesnt occur often,
if they must be rehomed as a pup this approach has worked the 2 times i have had to do it , It is spelt out in my contract to some degree, but i discourage a thought of giving up to soon,
My pups come first, and my time is valuable too
I do everything i can to try to help the people work out the problem within the home with out having to rehome the puppy
Rehoming is not healthy for the pup,not to mention confusing and very time consuming for me!

If this person hadnt bitten off more then she thought in the first place there are ways to make this situation work, IF she actually wanted to,
it sounds like this person just decided a pup was too much work , that is not the breeders fault, i wouldnt think anyway,

She certainly isnt entitled to anything until after they can resell the pup , just because it was vet checked means nothing, if exposed to parvo while with her, (this can even occur at the vet, brought in on shoes ect)
Parvo there is a 10days gestation for parvo show up, then of course you have shots worming extra time to devote to the pup,,by then the pup is older and sometimes harder to sell.

In any case i hope this all works out and the pup is ok, happy
You must think about yourself ,the pup First, Now ,the pup cannot speak for itself, that is why the good lord put the pup in your arms to begin with
to find it the best home ever
im sure you will do what you think is best,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I wish the reasoning would have been something we could have tried to work out, but if she is already saying she does not have the time, I am sure it won't get much better. She had such good references and another dog and the proper housing and at first it seemed to be lots of extra time. Her age still worried me a little. I am sure the time and new puppy responsibilities just were not something she was not ready to take on. I just don't know how we could have screened her any better. Oh well, from everything there is a lesson to be learned!
I was eager to get the puppy back sooner than later so she would not be left alone or mistreated in any way, as I am not there and do not know what goes on.
Fingers crossed, I think I have found her a great new home with a wonderful older couple that recently lost their 11 year old lab to cancer. The most important thing to me is that this pup does not feel umwanted or unloved and finds the the loving new forever home it deserves!
She will be getting LOTS of extra loving while she is her with us. My little boy can not to get her tomorrow and snuggle with her. It really hurt his little heart to think that someone could possibly NOT want her! :(

Thanks so much for all the replies!! I am very happy to report that ALL the other pups have found SUPER new homes and I hope to see them on this forum soon :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,192 Posts
Our breeder also has a policy of taking back pups. But, she doesn't refund anything after 2 weeks.
I think you breeders are wonderful to take the dog back! That's a lot of time and effort on your part. I don't think that the Buyer should expect one either with all you have to do.............If you feel bad about it, maybe refund 1/4 of the payment after you find a new home.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,203 Posts
I'd say if the pup is in good health as stated by said vet and like you also said she had the right set up etc but it didn't work out
see what your expenses are till the puppy is rehomed and
deducting any expenses you possibly incur from the price this puppy is sold to its new forever home and refund this woman.

i too would not be able to charge twice for the same dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
558 Posts
We had a similar situation occur last Summer. Our first & only return.

The young couple who purchased the dog worked with "Autistic Adults" in their home. They had visited the pup many times before 8 weeks of age, so we came to know them quite well & was reassured by their knowledge, excitement & plans for the pup.
Well after the first week, the Autistic adult freaked at the puppy which caused a major concern for them not being able to have a pup in their home.

Tom & I immediately took the pup back and refunded them completely.
It didn't matter to us the expenses involved.
And with us being so mindful of the darn parvo illness, thank God that was our last pup so their were no concerns with spreading the virus to any other lil ones we still had.
Luckily the day he returned him, and that was a very sad scene, with him crying in our living room....we received an email from a lady looking at that exact pup on the web site inquiring. Within 24 hours the puppy had a new home. Thank god....
But you do with what your conscious tells you to do..
The expense of feeding the dog & your time is valuable but the payback is finding a much better situation for the dog. Speaking for us alone is what we consider part of the responsibility of breeding.
These are our babies first , and as Tom always says , "these are our puppies always, you are just renting them from us" ....lol
I feel for you but God will intervene & you will find that perfect home.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,358 Posts
M&Tdoodles said:
We had a similar situation occur last Summer. Our first & only return.
Tom & I immediately took the pup back and refunded them completely.
It didn't matter to us the expenses involved.
And with us being so mindful of the darn parvo illness, thank God that was our last pup so their were no concerns with spreading the virus to any other lil ones we still had.
Luckily the day he returned him, and that was a very sad scene, with him crying in our living room....we received an email from a lady looking at that exact pup on the web site inquiring. Within 24 hours the puppy had a new home. Thank god....
But you do with what your conscious tells you to do..
The expense of feeding the dog & your time is valuable but the payback is finding a much better situation for the dog. Speaking for us alone is what we consider part of the responsibility of breeding.
These are our babies first , and as Tom always says , "these are our puppies always, you are just renting them from us" ....lol
I feel for you but God will intervene & you will find that perfect home.
Perhaps this should be the standard to which Breeders should hold themselves to! It also should be spelled out in contracts because it is needed in todays society. I feel bad it's left up to nice folks like you to suffer for the mistakes of others-yet that appears to be part of the business of breeding animals. Perhaps the following article will help you understand what happened on the other end... Thanks for being YOU

Thinking the Way Animals Do
By Temple Grandin, Ph.D.
Department of Animal Science
Colorado State University

Western Horseman, Nov. 1997, pp.140-145

Temple Grandin is an assistant professor of animal science at Colorado State University. She is the author of the book Thinking in Pictures. Television appearances include 20/20, CBS This Morning, and 48 Hours. Dr. Grandin has autism, and her experiences have helped her to understand animal behavior. She teaches a course in livestock handling at the university and consults on the design of livestock handling facilities.

Unique insights from a person with a singular understanding.

As a person with autism, it is easy for me to understand how animals think because my thinking processes are like an animal's. Autism is a neurological disorder that some people are born with. Scientists who study autism believe that the disorder is cause d by immature development of certain brain circuits, and over development of other brain circuits. Autism is a complex disorder that ranges in severity from a mild form (such as mine), to a very serious handicap where the child never learns to talk. The m ovie Rain Man depicts a man with a fairly severe form of the disorder.

I have no language-based thoughts at all. My thoughts are in pictures, like videotapes in my mind. When I recall something from my memory, I see only pictures. I used to think that everybody thought this way until I started talking to people on how they t hought. I learned that there is a whole continuum of thinking styles, from totally visual thinkers like me, to the totally verbal thinkers. Artists, engineers, and good animal trainers are often highly visual thinkers, and accountants, bankers, and people who trade in the futures market tend to be highly verbal thinkers with few pictures in their minds.

Most people use a combination of both verbal and visual skills. Several years ago I devised a little test to find out what style of thinking people use: Access your memory on church steeples. Most people will see a picture in their mind of a generic "gene ralized" steeple. I only see specific steeples; there is no generalized one. Images of steeples flash through my mind like clicking quickly through a series of slides or pictures on a computer screen. On the other hand, highly verbal thinkers may "see" th e words "church steeple," or will "see" just a simple stick-figure steeple.

A radio station person I talked to once said that she had no pictures at all in her mind. She thought in emotions and words. I have observed that highly verbal people in abstract professions, such as in trading stocks or in sales, often have difficulty un derstanding animals. Since they only think in words, it is difficult for them to imagine that an animal can think. I have found that really good animal trainers will see more detailed steeple pictures. It is clear to me that visual thinking skills are ess ential to horse training, but often the visual thinkers do not have the ability to verbalize and explain to other people what it is they "see."
Associative Thinking
A horse trainer once said to me, "Animals don't think, they just make associations." I responded to that by saying, "If making associations is not thinking, then I would have to conclude that I do not think." People with autism and animals both think by making visual associations. These associations are like snapshots of events and tend to be very specific. For example, a horse might fear bearded me n when it sees one in the barn, but bearded men might be tolerated in the riding arena. In this situation the horse may only fear bearded men in the barn because he may have had a bad past experience in the barn with a bearded man.

Animals also tend to make place-specific associations. This means that if a horse has bad prior experiences in a barn with skylights, he may fear all barns with skylights but will be fine in barns with solid roofs. This is why it is so important that an a nimal's first association with something new is a good first experience.

Years ago a scientist named N. Miller found that if a rat was shocked the first time it entered a new passageway in a maze, it would never enter that passageway again. The same may be true for horses. For example, if a horse falls down in a trailer the fi rst time he loads, he may fear all trailers. However, if he falls down in a two-horse, side-by-side trailer the 25th time he is loaded, he may make a more specific association. Instead of associating all trailers with a painful or frightening experience, he is more likely to fear side-by-side trailers, or fear a certain person associated with the "bad" trailer. He has learned from previous experience that trailers are safe, so he is unlikely to form a generalized trailer fear.
Fear Is the Main Emotion
Fear is the main emotion in autism and it is also the main emotion in prey animals such as horses and cattle. Things that scare horses and cattle also scare children with autism. Any little thing that looks out of place, such as a piece of paper blowing i n the wind, may cause fear. Objects that make sudden movements are the most fear-provoking. In the wild, sudden movement is feared because predators make sudden movements.

Both animals and people with autism are also fearful of high-pitched noises. I still have problems with high-pitched noise. A back-up alarm on a garbage truck will cause my heart to race if it awakens me at night. The rumble of thunder has little effect. Prey species animals, such as cattle and horses, have sensitive ears, and loud noise may hurt their ears. When I was a child the sound of the school bell ringing was like a dentist drill in my ear. A loudspeaker system at a horse show may possibly have a similar effect on horses.

People with autism have emotions, but they are simpler and more like the emotions of a vigilant prey species animal. Fear is the main emotion in a prey species animal because it motivates the animal to flee from predators. The fear circuits in an animal's brain have been mapped by neuroscientists. When an animal forms a fear memory, it is located in the amygdala, which is in the lower, primitive part of the brain. J.E. LeDoux and M. Davis have discovered that fear memories cannot be erased from the brain. This is why it is so important to prevent the formation of fear memories associated with riding, trailering, etc.

For a horse who has previously been fearful of trailers to overcome his fear, the higher brain centers in the cortex have to send a fear suppression signal to the amygdala. This is called a cortical over-ride, which is a signal that will block the fear me mory but does not delete it. If the animal becomes anxious, the old fear memory may pop back up because the cortex stops sending the fear suppression signal.

Fear-based behaviors are complex. Fear can cause a horse to flee or fight. For example, many times when a horse kicks or bites, it is due to fear instead of aggression. In a fear-provoking situation where a horse is prevented from flight, he learns to fig ht. Dog trainers have learned that punishing a fear-based behavior makes it worse. When a horse rears, kicks, or misbehaves during training, it may make the trainer feel angry. The trainer may mistakenly think that the horse is angry. But the horse is muc h more likely to be scared. Therefore it is important for trainers to be calm. An angry trainer would be scary to the horse. There are some situations where a horse may be truly aggressive towards people, but rearing, kicking, running off, etc., during ha ndling or riding is much more likely to be fear based.
Effects of Genetics
In all animals both genetic factors and experience determine how an individual will behave in a fear-provoking situation. Fearfulness is a stable characteristic of personality and temperament in animals. Animals with high-strung, nervous temperaments are generally more fearful and form stronger fear memories than animals with calm, placid temperaments. For example, research on pigs conducted by Ted Friend and his students at Texas A&M University showed that some pigs will habituate to a forced non-painful procedure and others will become more and more fearful.

Pigs were put in a tank where they had to swim for a short time. This task was initially frightening to all of the pigs and caused their adrenaline level to go up. Adrenaline is secreted in both people and animals when they are scared.

Over a series of swimming trials, some pigs habituated and were no longer scared, but others remained fearful throughout the trials. In the pigs that did not habituate adrenaline stayed elevated, which showed that the pigs were still afraid.

It is likely that horses would respond to different training methods in a similar manner. Horses with calm placid dispositions are more likely to habituate to rough methods of handling and training compared to flighty, excitable animals. The high-strung, spirited horse may be ruined by rough training methods because he becomes so fearful that he fails to learn, or habituate.

On the other hand, an animal with a calm, nonreactive nervous system will probably habituate to a series of nonpainful forced training procedures, whereas a flighty, high- strung nervous animal may never habituate. Horses who are constantly swishing thei r tails when there are no flies present and have their heads up are usually fearful horses. In the wild, horses put their heads up to look for danger.
Effects of Novelty
As a creature of flight, how a horse reacts to novel or unusual situations or new places can be used to access his true temperament. French scientist Robert Dantzer found that sudden novelty shoved into an animal's face can be very stressful. A horse with a high-strung, fearful nature may be calm and well-mannered when ridden at home. However, his true temperament has been masked because he feels relaxed and safe in a familiar environment. When he is suddenly confronted with the' new sights and sounds at a horse show he may blow up.

It is the more high-strung and fearful horses who-have the most difficulty in novel situations. At the show there are many unusual sights and sounds, such as balloons and loud public address systems, that are never seen or heard at home. An animal with a nervous temperament is calm when in a familiar environment -- he has learned it is safe -- but is more likely to panic when suddenly confronted with new things.

The paradoxical thing about novelty is that it can be extremely attractive to an animal when he can voluntarily approach it. A piece of paper lying in the pasture may be approached by a curious horse, but that same piece of paper lying on the riding trail may make the horse shy. People working with horses and other animals need to think more about how the animals' perceive the situations we put them in.

Click here to return to the Homepage for more information on animal behavior, welfare, and care.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
mtd...thanks so much for this article. I really found it to be fascinating in both understanding a little better how animals think as well as autistic people.
Do you think if she had a bad experience with the older dog we would be able to tell already if she has developed a fear? My grandmother went to pick her up nad she will be here in about an hour. I very anxious to see if her personality has changed any.
Thanks again for all the insight!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Hooray! We were able to find the pup a GREAT new home! With a family already familiar with Labradoodles AND I was able to refund the first owner all but the deposit!! Everything worked out perfectly!

The only one who is NOT happy is my little boy. I think he was sure that little puppy was HIS! :roll:
Thanks everyone for all the great advice!!
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top