[Maureen]

Hey everybody, I have been approached about using my boy, Sunny, pictured in my avatar. A breeder on the east coast, sort of, has asked me what do I charge? So, I'm asking HOW do you decide what you charge? Is it your price for a puppy? Or the price they charge for a puppy? What if there are additional fees involved, such as collection/shipping? Is that a factor for consideration?

THANKS in advance!!!

 

[KingstonTodd]

I just went through this and contacted dozens of stud/breeders looking for just the right stud and it was 50/50 if they charged their puppy price or what I was going to charge. Some had a lower "flat rate" but the were not up to snuff. All costs associated with the collection and shipping are up to the female in every case I encountered. Collection varies with your vet but the aditiona costs can run 300-500 depending on your distance (we were going accross the border so it was a little inflated). A few very special studs charged 2x the puppy fee. But they were very special dogs with rare genetics.

 

[Lucky Me]

What exactly do you mean by "it was 50/50 if they charged their puppy price or what I was going to charge".
Do you mean half the price of a puppy?
Marley ( F1B)is about ready to get his Penn-hip test, the last test left.
I too was wondering what to charge.... seems smaller is more popular...I have a guy from bigger dogs, but known for tight hips...plus for some as there are people out there that favor larger.
He is blue, but carries famous red lines, as well as one of the 3 chocolates tested by PID, and melanistic mask.
He also has 15 champs in his 6 gen. pedigree, the lab side strong with field champions...good for those that hunt with their doodles.
Does that give him any extra points? What is the average stud fee for a dog like Marley? :?
Perhaps you could let me know Tod after having made all those calls.... Thanks!!

 

[KingstonTodd]

Sorry for the confusion, by 50/50 I meant half of the breeders were going to charge me their puppy price, often around 1200-1800$, and the other half were going to chage me whatever my advertised pet price was. I think the breeders that were more novice were the ones charging what I would sell the puppy for since they didnt already have a set price for their fee. That may be a good place to start, at their puppy price, to see how much interest there is, and then you can charge more if you are popular. you can probably start at around 800-1000$, that was the ballpark I researched, if the stud had DNA, bloodwork, Hip/Elbows certs, CERF, vWD, etc... Most breeders want to know what colour your boy would carry, ie, can he produce the cream shades or just the darker colours (what are his B's and E's?)

 

[Lucky Me]

THANKS TODD!!
Marley is BeEe...
Mom, (Tuesday)is out of a long line of yellow labs & a dark black std.poodle
His dad is a red apricot, out of a dark red male (in the background of alot of dark red lines out there now) & a black female.
His lighter colored siblings were apricot, and red apricot.

 

[KingstonTodd]

BbEe is great coat genetics, capable of all the colours of the rainbow! Sorry for the hijack Mauren, we got a little side tracked but I think I answered you initially, and I am sure others will have some input too.

 

[Jac]

Hi Maureen, congratulations!

I charge "the going rate" for a pet puppy price. Usually that is in line with what they charge.

I think that you consider the "new bloodlines" as being valuable, but not so much that the price is greatly increased unless the lines are exemplary.

Usually, I think, the stud has to be proven...getting consistently nice, healthy litters with good coats/colors in order to be more valuable...but then, as in all things, the value is determined by what the market is willing to pay!

Shipping and collecting is paid by the owner of the dam.

When I do live coverage, in the past I took the female for a week and let her breed with my male at no extra charge. I wouldn't do that again. Your liability increases and your expenses, plus you know that it is hard having a bitch in heat around your household!

Finally, I guarantee a live litter or they can use the stud again without charge. A live litter is generally (by most breeders) 2 live puppies. I increased that to 3 live puppies.

Even if they use the stud without charge, they would pay shipping and collection.

Sometimes stud owners will trade semen for a pick of the litter, if you are interested in that. Other times they prefer to pay. (The value of a pick of the litter, breeding quality dog, is far greater than the stud fee.)

Judi, I think that the above note to Maureen covers your questions about Marley too...his coloring DNA is great but you'd want to have some litters to prove what he throws.

Todd, your experiences are very current and helpful, thanks!

 

[MaxandMe]

Maureen, email me okay? as i have some info to share with you as i had to do tons of research, talked to vets and breeders in US, canada and
austrailia when i was going to STUD out BEAU.

Jac has GREAT INFO though so maybe you dont' need to email me hahaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Maureen]

He is blue, but carries famous red lines, as well as one of the 3 chocolates tested by PID, and melanistic mask.
He also has 15 champs in his 6 gen. pedigree, the lab side strong with field champions...good for those that hunt with their doodles.
Does that give him any extra points? What is the average stud fee for a dog like Marley? :?
Perhaps you could let me know Tod after having made all those calls.... Thanks!!

Judi it sounds like Marley hit the jackpot, with getting a hidden chocolate gene in the midst of all those reds and blacks! Congrats to you!
My first Poodle, Sheba is BbEe and I had no idea how lucky I was, in getting that combo! So you are right, Marley will give the right females a rainbow litter!

I also believe that you should disclose to an prospective breeders that Marley has field trial champions in his background so that you attract the right crowd, possibly intereseted in hunting.

thanks everyone!! You have been a helpful, confirming voice!

by the way, I'm in the process of co-ownership of a Miniature Poodle here in CO from wonderful lines if anyone is ever looking for a red Miniature male for stud service! He's not born yet, but I am so thankful to have found this Miniature Poodle breeder! Email me if you are curious.

 

[Jac]

Hey, Maureen! Congratulations on the miniture stud!
Now I am going to be bugging you with questions about red! hahahah
Like...when a dog carries yellow...isn't that also red and apricot? Soooo, how do you get the red instead of cream?
And, red always have black noses, right?
And...when he gets big, maybe we will visit with Madison!
hahahaha...you drive me crazy! (Oh...well, okay, it was a short trip.)

 

[Lucky Me]

You know me and reds Jac!!!
Remember when I posted this a million years ago....

"Deep and rich, a clear red very distinctly different from apricot. Some pups
who start off as Red can fade into a dark apricot or even in some instances
a light apricot with dark shading around the eyes and nose. Usually those
who fade so dramatically have ancestors who were silver or blue.

Although the Red color has existed in the Miniature and Toy Poodle for
quite some time, the Red color is very new to the Standard Poodle.

Red was introduced into the Standard Poodle by a breeder in Oregon,
Palmares Kennels, and Shangri- La in New York.

These two breeders bred a small english apricot Standard female with an
over-sized red Miniature The first litter had 4 red babies. The color was a perfect red but the problem came later on. The heads were Standard
Poodles, the legs short like Miniature Poodles.

It took many years of selective breeding to get the correct proportions, size
and temperament of the Standard Poodle.

When looking for a RED Standard Poodle it is imperative to ask for the
pedigree of the parents to see that the dogs go back to either Palmares or
Shangri-La. If NEITHER kennel name is in the pedigree then it is likely NOT a red but an apricot.

Due to the increased popularity in the REDS many back-yard breeders are
selling Apricot pups as REDS"

Jac asked-
Like...when a dog carries yellow...isn't that also red and apricot? Soooo, how do you get the red instead of cream?
And, red always have black noses, right?

Marley's grandfather was from Palmare's Kennels & is in the background of alot of the dark reds today....yellow/apricot/red are the same gene.
From what I have researched, there is also a gene that darkens reds & chocolates. Marley's lines carries this. There are alot of dark reds that his dad produced, even with his dad being red-apricot with a light color nose.(a black nosed red is what you aim for with reds....and BOY are they beautiful!!!!
Marley does not carry dillute, however, he is Blue. I still do not understand that one. On some genetic info, blue is considered delute, other info it is not, so I will not know what he can do untill I breed him.
Apricot is a dillute of red if I remember right....
Annmarie & I were going back & forth with info when she was considering breeding Beau. She can probably add more.

 

[Jac]

...and a partridge in a pear treeeeeee!


hahahahahaha...thanks Judi! The extra gene for true reds makes sense...but...where did it come from if no other Poodles carry it, other than the two lines?

This is all so confusing...and fascinating!

 

[Lucky Me]

Well.....went to go on my computer and the screen is black, but the computer was humming......hope my computer didn't die!!!! :shock:
It will be no fun sharing my daughter's computer.....
Anyway, I have a link on it to the genetic site that talks about this gene. I will poke around on the web and try and find it again.....
Okay...here it was talked about in poodles, it is out there on other genetic sites too- http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/g ... color.html

Unknown action: rufus (R)
Red poodles are rare, generally appear in apricot lines, and appear to be the result of a separate gene. Willis, citing Robinson, talks about "rufus"genes, that are poorly characterized, but may act to darken an apricot or brown coat. As the poodle pedigrees for reds suggest only one such gene, I propose that it be called F (rufus; R is already used for roan). The recessive allele, f, produces red in an apricot (i.e. eeff), and may also affect brown, but is supposed to have no effect on black.

Jac- If you read above again...it was stated that it only existed in in the smaller poodles. Theses 2 kennels developed the reds into the standards. Somehow, I wonder if by now, other breeders haven't done some experimenting themselves....

 

[Maureen]

You know me and reds Jac!!!
Remember when I posted this a million years ago....


When looking for a RED Standard Poodle it is imperative to ask for the
pedigree of the parents to see that the dogs go back to either Palmares or
Shangri-La. If NEITHER kennel name is in the pedigree then it is likely NOT a red but an apricot.

Due to the increased popularity in the REDS many back-yard breeders are
selling Apricot pups as REDS"

[From what I have researched, there is also a gene that darkens reds & chocolates. Marley's lines carries this. There are alot of dark reds that his dad produced, even with his dad being red-apricot with a light color nose.(a black nosed red is what you aim for with reds....and BOY are they beautiful!!!!
Marley does not carry dillute, however, he is Blue. I still do not understand that one. On some genetic info, blue is considered delute, other info it is not, so I will not know what he can do untill I breed him.
Apricot is a dillute of red if I remember right....
Annmarie & I were going back & forth with info when she was considering breeding Beau. She can probably add more.

Good info Judi! I haven't done ANY research on reds, because I am obstinate and I have seen apricots sold as reds - - and also because reds have a rep in poodle circles of being unsteady, mentally or emotionally - and that WILL level off as those limited lines get bred out to a broader gene pool, but I'm not much for bandwagons and I hate, with a passion, when people market their ignorance! (such as classifying an apricot as red)

I do have to disagree with you about your Marley....if he is blue then he DOES carry the (d) by definition. Blue is a dilute of black and silver is a double dilute of black, from what I have learned from Poodle people. Or that's what I have read and heard in person.

As for apricot being a dilute of red? I would think that if a Palmares dog is bred to a dog carrying the (d) then a puppy born to be red could dilute to apricot, sure. But it's separate. And I think there's some genetic coding that affects whether a dog is white, yellow, apricot or red, that we don't know about. Because my girl who came from a white poodle expresses the (e) as white/cream, whereas my girl Copper (f1) who is gold with that darkening gene that gives red tones throws cream to apricots. A yellow Lab isn't one uniform color like a white poodle is, so there's something that gives that affect. I do know that there is at least one doodle breeder who specializes in the dark reds and her puppies definitely are coppper colored at birth! Beautiful!!

As for the darkening gene, isn't that interesting? My boy Sunny was born a beige, sort of buff color but turned a fairly dark apricot and has a COPPER-colored tail! He got that from his mom, and I think it is common in yellow labs but that's what I think, not what I know! :roll: I just have seen it in the yellow color-family.

Jac, if a red/apricot dog has a brown nose I think the Labradoodle/ILA people call them "CARAMEL" - which is a nice name but the fur is the fur, and the nose color is separate from fur color. So if you want to isolate the color of the fur, then I would say EITHER nose color can be on ANY dog. does that make sense?

Judi, how's Tuesday holding up?

 

[Jac]

Ah, guys, this is so good! I love this type of conversation!

The two of you have studied so much that you have become expert and I really appreciate you trying to explain it to me. I have always had trouble with science, never even wanted to understand genetics, until now! And, although it is difficult, I am learning...slowly but surely.

Annmarie tried to teach me about the rufus gene...it is a hard sell to someone like me...bless you all for trying!

 

[Maureen]

RUFUS GENE!! I LOVE THAT NAME!!

I was trying to remember what the "darkening" gene was called but it slipped my mind

 

[Lucky Me]

I'm Baaaaaack! My monitor went out....thank god it wasn't the computer! Used moniters are cheap right now!!!

Maureen asked-
Judi, how's Tuesday holding up?

Thanks Maureen....Tuesday is almost back to normal....once she perked up she got stronger by the hour!!! She has benn carrying around Marley's bunny though.. :? don't know when that will stop..

On the red color....
This is the color I really, really want...but have only seen this color in toys and miniatures...

These boys are all related to Marley....on the first 2(littermates), Marley's dad is their grandfather.... if I could get a shiney fleece coated Dark Red Labradoodle I think I would just die and go to heaven... I KNOW that dark "rufus" gene is involved in there!!!

 

[Jac]

They are beautiful, Judi, I love the deep red too...but, gosh, I also love apricot!

I am so glad that Tuesday is feeling better!

You know, my girls go through those stages of caryying around stuffed toys...during pregnancy but also afterwards...I think that even though Tuesday lost her pups, she is still going through her pregnancy...poor girl...but she is fine! And she will recover!!!

 

[cocoandjane]

by the way, I'm in the process of co-ownership of a Miniature Poodle here in CO from wonderful lines if anyone is ever looking for a red Miniature male for stud service! He's not born yet, but I am so thankful to have found this Miniature Poodle breeder! Email me if you are curious.

Maureen, when I read what you said above....
my first thought was how scared I would be to begin a breeding program...
downsizing the standard, to a medium and then to a mini....
I don't know the first thing about that whole process!!
I have read about it and might get the general idea, but
I would be terrified to have those puppies with standard heads and torsos
with legs too small for the rest of their bodies....
I am sure you and many others understand it all and
obviously have both experience and knowledge under their belts...........
I'd love to know more about it all.
Are you already breeding mini's, or mediums??
I am sorry, I have forgotten.

This thread began to go off to the discussion of color....which is fascinating to me, too.
Not as scarry as breeding for size....I so love all the colors
that it doesn't matter to me what I end up focusing on....
(which I will have to do since we are still intending to breed on a very small scale
compared to most I've met through this forum and in my general area of the world~~
~ BUT, I still find the "study" of all these facets of breeding so interesting,
even if I never get to go into a fraction, of a fraction of them experientially.
A deep red doodle is such a gorgeous thing!!

Jac,
Thanks for all the info about studding dogs....and current practices and trends.
Maybe you said this....but, don't most breeders have some sort of contract, or agreement
with the dam's owner in writing....spelling out all the particulars?...Just as many breeder's have sales agreements that get in writing those stipulations that are of importance to the breeder and really, the new owner, too?

 

[Jac]

Yes, Jane, they do have such contracts. Some, I believe, are way too intrusive. While we have to be cautious...if we don't trust the breeder we are working with to do what is right by the puppies, we probably should not be allowing our male to stud...rahter than trying to control everything through contracts.