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Discussion Starter #1
Hello Everyone!

I'm new here and have just puchased a 1 1/2 year old (2nd generation) caramel cream male Labradoodle. I purchased him for a family companion as well as to start a small selective Labradoodle breeding program with. (This pending his passing his health exams which hopefully shouldn't be a problem.)

He is tall and I want to produce taller Labradoodles so hoping to find a Standard female or Labradoodle (at least 2nd generation with good coat) that (naturally) has great temperament, conformation, health that is on the taller side. I would also prefer a cream, chocolate, red, or silver.

If all comes out well, I'd like to breed for a first litter in 2008.

( BTW, I started looking around my area (Upstate, SC) for a potential female and contacted a person who breeds Standard Poodles. Her dogs are quite nice. I saw that she had a silver 1 1/2 year old Standard Poodle for sale and I inquired about her and told her what I was looking for and what I intended to breed. Bad move??? She came back at me with all kinds of accusations about contributing to dog shelters with MUTTS and "shame, shame, shame on me"! She also said all vets were discouraging this sort of "designer dog" breeding. Is this the sort of response I should expect to get when looking for a Standard? )

Thanks for the help!
 

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Hi and welcome!
You have taken on quite a job! :wink: And it looks as though you have had your initiation by fire already! lol
There are a few Poodle breeders willing to work with doodles, but many of us buy our Poodles from Labradoodle breeders that also breed Poodles.
I am so glad that you are testing and looking for termperament and health before anything else. That is so very important.
This link might help arm you with information when you get hit by the "Pure Breed" snobs in future: http://www.canine-genetics.com/Default.htm
I understand the Poodle breeders wanting to keep their lines pure... especially now that I own a Poodle. I can honestly say that I was very misinformed about Poodles...and very prejudiced. So, they come by their protective natures naturally, if not ignorantly.
Now, about the female for your male...you are wise to look for the long legs, I love that about my Poodle an my F1B Labradoodles. Look for a Labradoodle from lines other than English because Englsh Labs are short legged and boxy.
Since your male is larger and has the Labradoodle genetic makeup, be aware of the female and her build. some Poodles are much too thin or narrow in the hips to whelp larger pups produced by Labradoodle males. It isn't always a problem, but you may want to be sure that your female and male are fairly matched.
You may want to partner with someone who is also just starting out, soeone who owns a female.
HOnestly, if I were to do it over again, I would get the best stud I could find, test him in every possible way, verify his DNA pedigree and stud him out or sell his sperm...I would not want to have the females and deliver puppies...it is very expensive, very messy, time consuming and it is so hard to let those pups go...then add to that the fact that you are liable for the genetic health of the pups for years to come, at least 2, sometimes more...and that sometimes even with testing, one of your dogs may be affected by some genetic disease you couldn't test for...then you have the huge investment, AND you are obligated to every single puppy buyer you have sold to!
While birth and the love of tiny pups is the most wonderous thing in the world...it can bring about the most heartbreak too.
I am sorry to go on and on...I'll close now and say that if you want to go forward, I will be happy to give you the benefit of the things I have learned along the way...feel free to send a PM to me if you would like.
Best wishes to you...and...good luck! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #3
You're not kidding about the initiation by fire! Wowsers! But I do understand being a purists as I am a horse breeder and breed a very old line of Saddlebred sport horses. However, I do understand that sometimes new blood needs to be brought in, even if you're having to go back to a breed that helped found the breed that you have.

I honestly feel that there is plenty of room for both the Poodle enthusiast as well as the Labradoodle lover.

Here was my response to her accusations; kind of long but to the point:

Dear Blank,

While I can appreciate your opinion, I have to respectfully disagree. The pure dog breeds that we have today were created in the very same way as the Austrailian and American Labradoodles are; breeders had a purpose for the type dog they wanted to create, and bred towards this goal until it had been achieved. The Standard Poodle came about in the same way as most every other dog breed . This goes for horses as well and I am quite well aware of this as I have been breeding for some time.

There are always unethical breeders out there in it for the money whether breeding supposedly "designer dogs" or purebred dogs. No matter how you slice it, whatever is popular at the time ends up being produced by unethical breeders. I do not believe the Labradoodle is a designer dog; I believe they are here to stay. In my opinion, the combination of the Standard Poodle and the Labrador (in varying percentages) with careful, knowledgeable breeding, produces a dog that stands out in its own right. I believe this combination produces a dog with an exemplary disposition, great beauty, great intelligence with fantastic trainability, and unbelievable emotional depth and intuition. This, in my opinion, is the perfect family and companion dog with the added advantage (to varying degrees but it is becoming more stabilized) to provide people with a dog that is more hypoallergenic and sheds less.

The Labradoodle is a "breed in evolvement". I would prefer, wanting only to breed American Labradoodles, that the book always be open to bringing more Poodle/Lab blood at any time it is needed as opposed to the book becoming closed.

While I agree with you that there are many breeders out there throwing anything together with a Poodle and calling it a "Doodle this or that", there are also many breeders who are breeding responsibly and producing generation after generation of healthy, handsome, happy dogs that are much valued by their people and fanciers. These dogs, because of their hybrid vigor and also because they have to pass stingent health exams for ethical breeders to even consider breeding them, have less health problems than I have seen in most of the purebred dogs whose gene pools have gotten too small. Many of these pure dogs, just like with purebred horses, are bred towards the conformational "fad" at the time; which ends up leading to heavy inbreeding and linebreeding because of the popularity of certain lines that are winning at the shows. In my opinion, this is where many of the genetic health problems attributed to certain breeds comes from and what "sets" them in a particular breed. Also, just as there is a problem with people showing horses only "in hand", dogs that are shown "in hand" tend, many times, to be bred less to the original conformational standard and more to what becomes an exaggerated conformation (again, the winning "fad" at the time) and this also leads to many problems with the body and the breaking down of certain parts.

I believe that stringent health exams should be passed for the ethical breeder to breed any dog. I also believe that the dog should prove itself useful in a capacity other than showing.

As for buyers suing, I believe a health guarantee should be offered by any reputable breeder. And yes, a breeder should live up to that contract and be prepared to do so. The same should happen with purebred dogs, with the breeders of purebred dogs just as at risk with being sued as anyone else.

Lastly, many dogs are in shelters, both purebred and non-purebred; cross-bred and backyard mutt. Perhaps, according to this morality, we should ALL stop breeding for awhile and just start adopting dogs from the shelter until the shelters are empty?

I am not emailing back because I really wanted to get into a philosophical discussion about the why's and wherefores of breeding dogs. I was interested in what you are breeding because this is the standard of dog that I am looking for. You breed very nice dogs! If I were not concerned with the quality of my dogs, don't you think I would try and pick up an inexpensive Poodle of questionable breeding so that I could jump on the designer Labradoodle bandwagon?

Most people who have the absolute joy of owning a well bred Labradoodle, as I did, certainly have nothing negative to say about their ownership experience. My vets loved mine as well as the public everywhere we went.

I wish you well in your Standard Poodle breeding program. :roll:

______________________________________________________

But I didn't post all the things she said. Suffice as to say I addressed each and every issue and accusation she brought up. I felt I had to defend the Labradoodle and its responsible breeders.

Anyway, still looking for that female. My male is HUGE. Very tall, very elegant; he is pale gold, shading, with a loose, wool-like coat. The texture is not really soft but not like a pure Poodle's. How can I say it's like somewhat rough on the top but when you press into it's soft underneath. Each wavy curl is separate to the skin from the other. Not "hair". I'm not a stranger to breeding high quality horses and know it when I see it in dogs. But I need more education regarding Labradoodles and mine in particular. Oh, he has the rose colored- nose and eye rims and the "ghost eyes"--amber- gold with the green in the center.

I will pm you when I can get away from the kids!

Jennifer
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Oh, and thank you for your advice about what type of Poodle to look for. Perhaps given the size of my male, I should look for anothe Labradoodle?

As soon as I have him tomorrow, I'll take pics and post them. :D
 

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Wow Jennifer, had I known you were so knowledgable about breeding and the responsibilities that go with it, I would not have been so wordy! LOL
(OK, I probably would have, but it would have served a different purpose!)
Your response to the Poodle breeder is very eloquent. Well said, well thought out. You represent us woderfully!
I will look forward to seeing your male, sounds like he is stunning!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you, blueteal, I feel very welcome here!

And I've just found my digital camera again after it disappeared over Thanksgiving. Hubby is charging the batteries and will definitely post pics of my new beautiful boy maybe as early as tomorrow.

BTW, the pic of that chocolate Labradoodle, your's? Absolutely lovely! I need to post pics of the Labradoodle that was given to me last mother's day and who tragically died so early and too little time for me to be with--I'm just not sure how to post them.

He's the one who made me aware of the Labradoodle. Now there is no other dog I could ever have.
 

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If you mean my Avatar? Then yes that is Denver
and he is around 31 inches tall so I certainly can relate to the tall
ones, but i love them all sizes and all generations and all colours too.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Jac--

The information you gave me is very informative and I'm going back and forth there. I love genetics and the study. I'm a research nut and have to know the ends and outs of everything. So I appreciate greatly you giving me the addresses to all that info. It's much more info than what I've been able to find by myself.

I've been a horse breeder for a couple of years but I researched literally EVERYTHING before I selected and bred. End game being I've produced exactly what I wanted and apparently, what other people want. I've been a rider/trainer of horses for most of my life.

Dogs have always been a part of my life. Three greatest dogs I've ever owned: a white Timberwolf/German Shepherd named Delilah, a very tall, gorgeous German Shorthair Pointer named Fargo, and Seuss, my chocolate Labradoodle who tragically died last year. Of these three, he was the greatest.

As for knowledge, I cannot ever have enough. I certainly do not know what you guys know about this breed, I mean, hybrid. That's why I'm here. And very glad to meet you all! :D
 

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King Louis said:
blueteal--yes, I was talking about your avatar. Denver is lovely!
Thank you

In my younger years I used to break horses and train them
with my sister-in-law who was a jockey way back when.
 

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HI Jennifer!! perhaps you could also post a pic of your horses or pm a pic to me? i 'd love to see them.

welcome!!

Sue.....why did you stop?
 

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Most of the dog breeders that I know also breed horses. I have noticed that! I would not know the first thing about horses, except that they are beautiful creatures!
I have learned the way you have, Jennifer...by sheer curiosity. I can't get enough information when I start on something that fires me up! LOL
When I got my Labradoodles I knew nothing about breeding and less than that about dogs, genetics, etc. I feel pretty good with the lessons I have learned, so far, but I know that I have much more to discover!
 

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Sue.....why did you stop?
Breaking horses in your twenties and thirties is a lot different
then doing it in your fifties and things in life just change sometimes.
bahahahhahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
 

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blueteal said:
Sue.....why did you stop?
Breaking horses in your twenties and thirties is a lot different
then doing it in your fifties and things in life just change sometimes.
bahahahhahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Gets more like the horse breaking you?? :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yes, horsebreaking is backbreaking, neckbreaking, armbreaking work but that's why I like to get as much covered from the ground as I can!

Okay, got pics of my new Labradoodle as well as the wonderful chocolate one that introduced me (and sold me) to the whole endeavor. Caramel Cream intact male is my new 1 1/2 year old Labradoodle with the lovely ghost eyes and the large and tall body structure. He's settling in beautifully and has completely bonded to me and my children. My husband is still working on making him feel comfortable with him. Louis (who I'm naming "King Louis" after King Louis the 16th) is somewhat protective of me right now but I have a feeling it has a lot to do with the fact that I've spent most of the day with him alone since I picked him up this morning. He is a well-adjusted dog in all respects but has had quite an upheaval in his life today.

I love him completely!

The other dog I have featured there was my so lovely Labradoodle that had such a tragic and short end to his life. I couldn't look at another dooodle for quite some time after I had to put him down. His name was Seuss and we referred to him as our "floppy doodle" because of his way of flopping around in movement and goofy antics.

So tell me what you think. BTW, I'm overjoyed to have Louis and hope to be able to breed puppies after his health check. :D
 
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