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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Could someone point me in the direction of a high quality Labradoodle breeder's website? I wish to read about them. I admit that I am against cross breeding and that I don't see why someone will pay such a high price for a Labradoodle when they can purchase a Curly Coated Retreiver but I also would like to read about a breeder's philosophy and why and how they do what they do.
 

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hey, Todd, thanks for the link!
Now for my answer:
First of all, there are bloodlines of the Australian type of Labradoodle that actually have CCR's in them - Rutland Manor and Tegan Park Labradoodles are reportedly from a mixture of dogs including the CCR, as well as Lab and Poodle. But Curly Retrievers shed! Our 2nd generation Labradoodles don't.

I could make similar points as you made about a Standard Poodle! They are a great breed, not widely known, or understood as the intelligent loyal and devoted breed that they are, and the DON'T SHED. But to get the loving, fun-loving nature of the Lab, who IS widely known, there has to be a crossing of the 2 breeds. And to get the fleece coats that are low-to-non-shedding in a litter, one has to raise a Labradoodle (after purchasing him/her?) to adulthood, do the genetic screening, etc. etc. and THEN start finding a suitable Poodle mate to get the first chance at breeding 2nd generation Doodles. So do you see how I could, as a breeder, justify the higher cost/investment of a 2nd generation Labradoodle?

Oh, while I'm talking about it, f1 Labradoodles are about the same price as a low-end-priced Poodle. And ALL non-shedding breeds are priced higher than most Retrievers I've seen.

A well-bred dog from any breeder is priced at a premium. You can find Labs at a whole spectrum of price points; the same is true for Standard Poodles. And so it goes for Labradoodles. Experience, training, bloodlines, testing - these all are factors in ANY breed's breeders.

You are welcome to read more on my personal website.

Also there is a site with a TON of info about both breeders and the breed: http://www.goldendoodles.com/
The site above has a list of breeders who PAY to get on that listing service, and I'm not on it. But I still respect the site as being an informative one, if you want to learn more.

There is a site with a listing of breeders who MUST do certain breed-specific tests on their breeding dogs to be on the list:http://www.goldendoodle-labradoodle.org/ But this site isn't as informative as some. The individual breeders can give you lots of info, as they are arguably premium breeders in North America.

Also, there are several excellent breeders who post on this forum so I'm sure they would welcome you as well, to look at their sites. And there are literally 1000's of posts on this forum that could be helpful for you to learn.

I'd love to hear what other breeders might add......
 

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I can give you my own personal reason for buying a labradoodle. We need a non-shedding, hypo-allergenic dog because my husband has allergies and gets asthma from other types of dogs. My teenage son did not want a "poodle" (unfortunately there is a stigma attached to them) but was ok with getting a labradoodle. So to some, it's just personal preference. There are not very many hypo-allergenic dogs to choose from. All the other large hypo-allergenic dogs did not have the temperament characteristics that we wanted. I went with an F1B to increase my chances of him being hypo-allergenic and we are very happy with our choice.
 

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You made some good points, Kim. When we were looking for a non-shedding breed, I saw that I could choose between Terriers and Poodles. Every Terrier breed that I wanted to consider had a high energy level and we prefer lay-around-dogs. Poodles are happy in apartments!
So then we had to decide to get past the "stigma" as kim mentioned. It took a while! Plus the sticker-shock was a factor, but as I said before, it's a factor going from MOST shedding breeds to non-shedding breeds. (There are exceptions, of course....English Bulldogs cost more! :wink: )
 

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This is my two cents for what it is worth, I am not a breeder but am a proud owner of 2 wonderful Labradoodles. If I am not mistaken all "pure breeds" began as mixed breeds and then are bread for certain traits, just like the Labradoodle. They are wonderful, fun-loving, intelligent, beautiful and gentle dogs, need I say more. Oh, the reduced to non-shedding part is a major plus!

Here is an excerpt from a National Geographic article I found, the link to it is http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... reeds.html

"Another surprise for dog lovers is that some purportedly ancient breeds-such as the Ibizan hound, the pharaoh hound, and the Norwegian elkhound-are not included in this ancestral group. "Breeds like the pharaoh hound have long been thought to be quite ancient, descended from ancient breeds pictured in wall art in [5,000-year-old] Egyptian tombs," Zeder said.

These dogs may in fact have been recreated in modern times from European stock to resemble these ancient breeds, Kruglyak said. Or they might have undergone so much mixing with other breeds that it has masked their ancient origins.

The large majority of breeds, however, likely have recent, European origins, according to the authors. A second cluster of dogs consists of mastiff-like breeds, including the bulldog, rottweiler, and boxer. A third group includes ancestors and descendents of herding-type dogs, such as the Irish wolfhound, the collie, the greyhound, and the Saint Bernard. The final cluster includes scent hounds, terriers, spaniels, and retrievers."
 

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Hi WigWag, welcome to the forum. I commend you on your candor and your interest in hearing what "the other side" has to say, even though you may not agree with the concept.
You are welcome to take a look at my web page, not that I am claiming to have any special knowledge. I just really love these dogs and I hope that it shows.
As a breeder, I can say that no matter what breed (or non-breed, if you prefer) of dog you are looking at, the person handling the "business end" of the program has to be the one put under the microscope...not the resulting puppies.
There are good breeders and bad breedrs in every type of program.
My selection of Labradoodles is due to my husband's allergies too. And, honestly, had we known about curly coated retrievers or even about how great Poodles are, we may never have gotten into breeding Labradoodles...but I am so glad that we found Labradoodles!
They are very sweet, loving and intelligent dogs. We donate puppies to the Guide Dogs of America and have been fortunate to get very good puppy raiser families...yet, I have to brag a bit when I say that two excellent trainers have given glowing reports on our dogs and have told their friends and collegues about them as well.
In fact, one of our puppies was selected to represent the GDA in their major fundraising golf tournament...and she was only 7 months old! (This is an honor reserved generally for puppies no younger than a year.)
Another trainer said that she has been training for 20 years and has trained 7 guide dogs before she got ours...and she openly tells others that our little Labradoodle is the best dog she has trained so far.
So, you see, it is more than a fad...in fact, I hate the term "designer dog" because it sounds so superficial...these dogs are here to stay and every vet that has ever checked my dogs gets very excited because they are so healthy and even-tempered...they are just good dogs!
But, you asked for web pages, so here are a few links...I am going to add the canine diversity project in hopes that you might just see something that makes sense to you.
http://www.idog.biz/
http://www.westwoodlabradoodles.com/
http://www.morningsmilelabradoodles.com/
http://www.canine-genetics.com/Default.htm
Please keep in mind that we are not asking to change the world's view about dogs...we only want to be able to buy and raise dogs of our choosing...and all of the hullabaloo about it is really rather silly. You can buy a dog (which we do) or you can buy papers (which don't guarantee quality)...it is a personal choice. We don't judge those who choose not to like Labradoodles...we only ask that you don't judge us either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you all for the information. I do have to point out that all dogs shed including Poodles (this coming from someone I know who breeds Standard Poodles) and that they are not "hypo-allergenic" and people with allergies can still be allergic to Poodle coats.

I do understand that the Curly Coats are different but why not simply get a Standard Poodle or a Portugeuse Water Dog? I'm not sure that a varying coat color is reason enough to start breeding mix breeds?

I also have a few more questions. I have seen about six Labradoodles recently and all have been very very tall and lanky. Is there a reason for this?

Also where are Labradoodle breeder's getting their Poodles and Labradors from? I am a small hobby breeder of Labrador retrievers and am active in conformation and hunt tests and I would never sell a puppy to someone whose intent was to breed Labradoodles. I don't know anyone else with quality pedigrees who would either so where are the dogs from that are being bred for F1 generations?

Another question is who is deeming dogs "breeding quality"? I perused some of the links and saw one site boasting breeding "two family dogs". Are most simply breeding family pets? Do any Labradoodles compete in anything? I understand they can't compete in AKC conformation but do you have any type of judging for conformation or can they look any way they come out?
 

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The dogs you speak about are completely different in looks, coat and temperment than a labradoodle. The curly coated retriever (Which I do think are lovely) are one of the older retrievers. The poodle is the oldest recorded retriever according to a Duck Hunting Magazine I read last month. The curly coated retriever has only been recognised by AKC since 1926 and it tends to have hip dysplaysia, epilepsy and eye problems and are not recommended for apartment dwellers at all. They are believed to be a mix of Close-Curled English Water Dog, the Old Water Spaniel and the St. John's Newfoundland dog. Some sources suggest the Irish Water Spaniel, the Labrador, and the Poodle. So as you can see when someone suggest a "purebred" over a poodle lab cross it makes little sense to me because all the purebreds are a mixture of certain breeds for certain reasons.

In the case of the Labradoodle the original reason was to breed a dog that was a "no shed" (and yes I realize that all hair including poodle and human regenerates) and who's dander could be tolerated by a vast majority of people that were unable to tolerate other dogs. In addition the reputable american breeders (I am unfamilliar with the australians so I cannot speak for them) are very concerned about testing and breeding only the best and making sure that they do not progress quickly to the 6th (or purebred) Labradoodle generation so that enough foundation dogs exist for the longevity of this emerging breed.

If you were to familiarize yourself with the testing that is done and the methods you will understand that the testing has designated parameters to determine the quality of the dog, so no breeder is determining the quality, the test results are. I am often surprised by the amount of purebred breeders that do not test their breeding stock. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Labradoodles are recognised by CKC and are permitted in their field trials etc.

Many poodle and labrador breeders that I know are all for the Labradoodle and readily sell pups at breeding prices to reputable Labradoodle Breeders.

There is an organisation that has established standards for the labradoodle as well. http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/LabradoodleB ... ndard.html
 

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Wigwag - of course there is always the exception that some people can be allergic even to poodles, but, I think there are many more people who can tolerate them but cannot tolerate other types of coats. Yes, the standard poodle I had, did have times when little tufts of hair would be seen on the carpet a couple of times a year, but, in general, they do not get hair on people or furniture like other dogs. To be honest, it must be acknowledged that poodles do not shed like other dogs. Again, some people just do not want a Poodle with it's stigma of being a foofy(?) dog and because of the ridiculous (in my opinion) hairstyles they have.

Portugese water dogs and curly coated retrievers do not have the type of temperament that I would want in a dog. (Plus, the curly coated retriever sheds) They are difficult to train(in that they can be strong-willed) and need LOTS of exercise(from different sources I have read- I always do alot of research before I get a dog to make sure it will be right for me). People should not just get a dog because they like the way it looks. They should research their temperament and needs to see if they would fit into their lifestyle. I agree that the varying coat colors are not enough to start a breed.

Why do AKC recognized dog breed breeders refer to labradoodles as "mixes" with such disdain when every dog breed was bred from different mixes to begin with? I just honestly do not understand that.

Of course there are breeders of ALL dogs that are not conscientious. There are back yard breeders and puppy mills for AKC recognized breeds, too.

I think Labradoodles fill a need, as they did in my case.
 

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kim26 said:
Why do AKC recognized dog breed breeders refer to labradoodles as "mixes" with such disdain when every dog breed was bred from different mixes to begin with? I just honestly do not understand that.

Of course there are breeders of ALL dogs that are not conscientious. There are back yard breeders and puppy mills for AKC recognized breeds, too.

I think Labradoodles fill a need, as they did in my case.
VERY well said Kim

In addition while i was researching curly coated retrivers, they seem to have a very very short lifespan, this comes from inbreeding and linebreeding due to the small gene pool

The tempraments are just horrid also IMHO
 

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I just want to make a quick comment here, WigWag...
I know of many, many breeders who openly tell customers that all dogs shed (I also explain that all humans shed!) and I try to tell them that grooming is necessary to keep their dog healthy.
I never say that my dogs are hypoallergenic...allergies are caused by too many things, not just fur or dander...although I can and do explain that my husband, who has long suffered from allergies and asthma, can cuddle and love our dogs without a negative reaction.
Why choose a Labradoodle over Poodle or Water Dog? It is about more than a coat. Labs have qualities that make them one of the most sought after pets, as you know since you have bred them. So, if someone (like my husband) loves Labs, but can't be around them...and there are caring breeders out there helping to make the Lab more compatible to allergy sufferers, why NOT support them? Everyone is getting what they want. What is it hurting you or any other of the "fancy"?
I am NOT in favor of breeding "any" dog to a Poodle and selling it as "non-shedding or non-allergenic"...you have to look at many things, including the personality and temperament of the dogs you are breeding...whether that is with pure bred dogs or mixed breed. You have to look at the end result. We are getting WONDERFUL puppies, as I mentioned in my previous post. Puppies and dogs that are ADORED by their new owners and who are amazing even the most skeptical vet. So, please read and pay attention to what we are saying...if you really want to know.
We get our breeding stock from people who hold no prejudice. There are many breeders, thank God, who recognize that mixing breeds can be a healthy thing to do...do you inbreed?
I believe that you are not really reading the information we give you...I get the feeling that you are here to preach, not to be informed. That is unfortunate, because I think that information leads to understanding.
The links I gave you would have answered these questions for you, had you read them...so I come by my suspicion of you quite naturally.
If you really want to know, please read the information given to you, especially the caninie diversity project...and if you just want to argue, you have come to the wrong place. Others have tried on this forum, and have failed. We love our dogs and you will not be able to convince us that having a paper will improve the quality of our dogs...in fact, the more that I read about the unfounded prejudice of people like you, the more convinced I am that "the fancy" is certainly not serving its original purpose.
So, you will not find sympathy or support from me in this issue.
At first, I was happy to think you might have an open mind about this, but after looking at your last question, knowing that you have not considered the information that I, and the others, have provided, I now feel that trying to educate you is a futile effort...because you don't want to know or understand, you want to preach and condemn. That is very sad.
 

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WigWag said:
Another question is who is deeming dogs "breeding quality"? I perused some of the links and saw one site boasting breeding "two family dogs". Are most simply breeding family pets? Do any Labradoodles compete in anything? I understand they can't compete in AKC conformation but do you have any type of judging for conformation or can they look any way they come out?
Wigwag, you mentioned that you are a hobby breeder of labs. Do you consider the dogs you breed family dogs?"

There is nothing wrong with the breeding dogs being considered "family dogs" this means they are taken care of like a fmaily member and do not just exist to produce puppies. I'm sure if you checked the sites you would see that these breeders do all the health testing required to ensure they are breeding only healthy dogs and consider personality and temprament of their animals. I realize this is not the case of all breeders but the reputable ones do.

If it is truly your goal to find out more about labradoodles you can check out the International Labradoodle Association site to find out more, it should answer many of your questions. http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/LabradoodleB ... ndard.html The link is also in Movistar's post above.
 

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I hope EVERYONE who wants to learn about Labradoodles reads this thread!

Poodles do NOT shed, per se. ALL dogs need to lose their hair/fur, just as we do. But they lose or "shed" their coats thru it being pulled out. That is why AKC Poodle people call their dogs' coats "Hair". Same with Terriers. The whole thing with allergies has been blown out of proportion by laymen, in my experience, not reputable breeders of ANY breed. Allergies can be to dander, or oils in the fur (neither of which Poodles have) or enzymes in the saliva, which is specific to each dog and each person.

If you would equate the temperment of a PWD (Portie) with a Labrador Retriever or Poodle then you do not know that breed well! I researched that one before choosing our Poodles. They are not a dog I can recommend as being easy-going with with small children in the way (our) Labradors are, or our Poodles are. And the handlers/owners I spoke with concurred. I do not have a hunting Lab, but a "layaround" Lab, and she's retired, but she was always mellow and lazy, and great with our kids from infancy to now.

If you want to love and enjoy your Labs go for it! We all love Labs here!

This is the part of the AKC and any AKC breeders that fascinates me:
On Dec 9 I was just meeting with a Collie breeder who shows/handles/finishes champion Collies in my area. She PROUDLY spoke of her inbreeding program and how it helps her and her dogs, and the smaller litters she has because of it. And she has the AKC and her Collie club cheering her on! I was fascinated and stunned to hear of it.

I can't imagine ANY Labradoodle/Goldendoodle breeder being so proud of their inbreeding! In fact an accidental inbreeding cost someone their position on the Board of the ILA (L'doodle Assn)!

And somehow being an "AKC" breeder is morally superior? Ooooh, I think not.

I'm not saying that you, Wigwag are claiming any such moral superiority. I'm just saying that we're different, and we have a distinct and different clientele than someone looking for a Portie, CCR, or Labrador. Or even Poodle! Every one of the breeders posting here has totally fallen in love with Labradoodles, but if we didn't have a "market" or population of people wanting them, then at least some of us would make other plans! But just as there are 1000's of people wanting Labs, and keeping 1000's of Lab breeders in business, so to speak, there are enough Doodle-wanting people to help us keep breeding our Doodles. I have actually allowed my Poodle Fancy to be bred for "pure" Poodle puppies and my Doodle clients pass on them! So the question of why not get a CCR or a Poodle is more for the clients, not us. Here, we're preaching to the choir so to speak!

Thank you for asking (if anyone is still reading my long post :wink: ) and best wishes to you. I sincerely hope you learned something thru this forum, and this thread.

 

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P.S. If you haven't taken the time to look at the referred websites, the answer to your question about whether they can look any way they come out, is that there is an established "breed" standard for labradoodles.

Could you honestly tell me why the breeding of labradoodles bothers you?

P.S. Out of curiosity, I went searching on the net for curly coated retriever puppies and could not find any. I read that they are rare. I can only imagine the price of a pup!
 

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Here is how I came to be a Labradoodle owner. My first dog was a border collie, his temperment was incredible and he was so so smart. I was a young kid at the time and his energy level matched mine so no problem there either. I have always wanted to get another dog in my adult life but
I got into cat rescue (currently have nine) I kept thinking how can I get a dog with so many cats, will it be fair etc. So I started researching. Border collies were first as that was my experience. Long story short I worried about there herding tendecies(remember I am trying to pacify my cats first as they are my babies) Next I had decided labrador or golden retriever.
Spoke with many breeders of both. I did research for a full 2years. Two of my friends in the meantime had bought Golden Retrievers from different breeders and they were wonderful, unfortunately both puppies ended up with very mild hip problems and have since been corrected with surgery and all is now well, but it scared me a little bit so I decided on a purebred Labrador. One day about a year before I got Denver I saw a picture of a Labradoodle and thought "What the heck is that" more research. I started speaking to Labradoodle breeders aa well as Labrador breeders. My sister-in-law bought a pure bred standard poodle at this time and I grew to love poodles, but still preferred the temperments of the labs that I had viewed and known. Back to breeder research. I finally found the breeder that I wanted to do business with, as she answered all my questions more honestly than anyone had so far and with a zest and love for animals, that matched my own. Yes she breeds f1 labradoodles.
I knew nothing about this breed and she answered my inquiries for 6 full months never knowing if I was gonna purchase or not. My family is not allergic to dogs so shedding was not an issue but she told me straight off that they all do to some degree. I know this post is long but I am sick and tired of people questioning as to why we get the dogs we do. It is called love Mr Wigwag. It is called integrity of the breeders Mr. Wigwag if you would just listen to some of the breeders in here you will see that. Yes there are bandwagon breeders out there but they are in the purebred game as well Mr. Wigwag. I got my Denver a F1 labradoodle 7 months ago. He has the most loving temperment, he is smart and he is fitting into the cat family. He came from a loving breeder who started him off on the right foot with lots of love and care. The breeders in this forum are of the same high quality loving caliber and that is why I love this place. We learn together and these breeders adore their lives bringing up doodles, just like my breeder and this is what the buying public wants Mr. Wigwag. People who stand by their dogs out of love and devotion and know that they are sending out the most valuable puppies in terms of temperment and well adjustedness(is that a word?) And if I forget to mention testing requirements then let me add that, because the breeders in here as well as my own go above and beyond that department, just take a look at their websites.That is why I have a labradoodle Mr. Wigwag,and I adore him and my family adores him, even the cats are coming around and he loves us.What more could I ask for?
 

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Well said, Sue, thank you...you have such passion and love for living creatures and I am pleased that you have selected a Labradoodle to add to your household.
Denver is a lucky pup...and we are lucky to have you with us on this forum. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm not someone who wants to negate everything said and I truly am a curious person by nature and I love to read and learn.

I read some coat color questions here and thought I could help in that deparatment given my background in genetics and interest in the subject.

The reason that so many Labrador and Poodle breeders oppose Labradoodles and other "doodles" is that we see the dogs sold to people for high price tags with really nothing to back that up. These are dogs whose parents do not have health clearances and they do not have good quality pedigrees. I like to see pedigrees filled with champions along with obedience and hunt test titles. I doubt that most Labradoodle breeders have such dogs as breeding stock. The fact that Labradoodles do not compete in anything doesn't help because there is no objective judging and proof of breeding quality. Just because a dog has health clearances doesn't mean it should be bred either. I know a lot of Labradors with health clearances that are not quality dogs in my opinion.

Okay that said I am not the breeding police and people can do as they please. I just hope that they health test everything and dogs have good temperaments and that they don't jump on the bandwagon because they have a Poodle from the pet store and breed it with a run of the mill Labrador.

I really do want to know why all the Labradoodles I have seen are very very tall - taller than either the top of the Labrador or Standard Poodle standard.

Also can someone share their Labrador's pedigrees with me? I would like to know where they purchased their Labradors with full registration and breeding rights.
 

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Thank you for your honesty Wigwag and I am glad you love to read and learn.

You do, however, say some conflicting things like "These are dogs whose parents do not have health clearances...." and then you say that "Just because a dog has health clearances doesn't mean it should be bred either."
As you have now discovered, (I hope), there are many reputable breeders who breed Labradoodles who have their dogs tested and choose parents with excellent temperaments.

Maybe there are people out there that don't value the same things that you value. I could pay alot of money for an AKC registered puppy with champions galore in their background, but, how is that going to help me if I just want a pet? Reputable Labradoodle breeders spend alot of money on buying healthy, good tempered parents and on health testing. I don't begrudge the breeders getting what they get for a puppy. (I do think it is immoral for the puppy mill breeders to jump on the bandwagon)

So, why don't you raise your prices on the puppies who have "pedigrees filled with champions along with obedience and hunt test titles"? Why begrudge the LD breeders who are supplying a need to a portion of the public who want a Labradoodle. If people didn't think they were worth it, they wouldn't buy them. Also, the more rare a dog is, or anything really, the higher the price.

How do you feel about pet stores charging enormous prices for puppy mill puppies?

I'm glad you have stuck with us and I hope you don't think we are being too hard on you. I happen to enjoy the banter. :D

C'mon, be honest, don't we make some legitimate points? :wink:
 

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WIGWAG I am NOT a breeder I am just a Happy Grateful MOM of very loving, obedient, smart, low shedding Labradoodle.
For most of my life I did fostering of dogs and have had what you call "pedigrees".

I find it disheartening that some dislike Labradoodle and Goldendoodles as they fill more than one need:

1. Allergy and Asthma sufferers report little or no reactions as in my house which is why we didn't have pets for 5yrs+
2. They are greatly used as service and therapy dogs
3. They have a good nature, comical side, and love to be around families.
4. Unless you've had one, been with one, or know someone with one Then you're missing out on one of life's greatest pleasures: Doodles

5. What guarantees do you yougive with the puppies you breed? have you had all the testing done most doodle breeders do?

I have been waiting since 1980 to get a labradoode following almost every article on them I could. Funny how well they do as service& therapy dogs YET people seem to want to not give them credit as they're not a "full pedigree'! ..gimme a break!

Personally I could care less whether someone considers Our MAX a pedigree or mutt....HE's simply our baby!!! and we wouldn't have life any other way.
he doesn't drool, hardly sheds, doesn't bite, isn't agressive, isn't headstrong, good with kids, comical, playful, never needs harsh words/voice, is predictable within the doodle community of behaviours.

Many good breeders get the price for their doodles due to the stock they use for breeding( using only the best PEDIGREES ) and testing, along with socialization , some training,shots, and more.

OK my short novel is over and thank you all for letting me express my doodle view.
 
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