[KingstonTodd]

I was reading the accected practises of the ALAA and it discourages inbreeding and line breeding in labradoodle breeding programs, even though it has been used in the past in establishing other pure breeds. On the surface I think everyone agree's that inbreeding is bad (insert image of Simpsons character Cletus). From the ALAA...
"Studies on a wide variety of species have demonstrated that highly inbred individuals frequently live shorter lives and have fewer progeny. This is called inbreeding depression." I dont think anyone disagrees with this.

In the course of my daily reading I came accross an interesting study (Science 318, 813-816, 2008) which looked at genealogical data for over 160 000 couples born over 165 years starting in 1800 in Iceland. Social and economics factors were relatively stable during this period so they attribute their findings to genetic factors.
They comcluded..

1. women who married 3rd or 4th cousins had on average one more child and 2 more grandchildren, ie were more reproductively fit, than couples far less related.

2. first or second cousins had just as many children, however those children died younger and were less reproductive.

For LD breeders this means we shouldnt inbreed, but maybe we should go searching long lost 3rd and 4th cousins

 

[Jac]

I think it is probably inevitible that at some point we will find related dogs, and I see smiling face in your post...
Some breeder do practice inline breeding. I, personally, will continue to search for totally unrelated breeds because the theory behind inbreeding or line breeding is that you keep the really good traits in the same line...the problem is that every breed, every dog also carries bad traits and this type of breeding reproduces those bad traits, often enhancing them.
Also, in the pure breed community, over the years when those bad traits came out...they just "eliminated" the defective dog.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we now have the science that was not available before. So, the breeding practices of even 100 years ago are really outdated.
I think that the Canine Diversity Study is an excellent resource if you are interested in studying the affects and reasoning behind inbreeding or line breeding. (I'd post the link but don't have access to my "favorites" from this computer. I have posted it before though so you can do a search and find the link in my other posts.)

 

[Lucky Me]

Was flipping around on the Tegan LD site in Austailian and found this on her site-
"Male breeding dogs have a profound influence on their breed. Whereas a female can be expected to produce at best, 80 to a hundred puppies throughout her lifetime, a male can produce many hundreds, and even thousands of offspring if given the opportunity. Add to this, the current modern trend to freeze semen, which can be used long after the dog has passed on, and it is easy to see why the Stud Dog needs to be chosen with utmost care. A Stud male animal of any species is judged on his pre-potency, which means that not only must he exhibit the best phonetic traits himself, but he should also demonstrate his ability to pass along these traits to his progeny over a diverse female population. Line breeding and In Breeding are often done in the pursuit of pre-potency in breeding stock. In 'Pure' Breeds, an inbreeding co-efficient of 30% is considered to be quite low and quite acceptable."

 

[Napathedoodle]

It is crazy. I noticed that there are quite a few "popular" studs here in America, and breeders are having a hard time finding unrelated males.

But, I'll never forget reading a Irish Setter Breeder's website, when I thought I wanted one, that proudly announced breeding a dam to her grandfather.....

I think Sires should be picked very carefully, because they can produce much more, and have a longer span than most females. But, that being said, I think Sire owners should be very select in who they breed their Sires to, as to not crowd the breeding realms with their offspring, however great they may be.

IMHO

 

[gracielou]

I'm not surprised you found what you did on RM's site since they did a lot of inbreeding and some line breeding. I always look at it this way would you want to have your Fathers Baby? Then it just doesn't seem so acceptable.

 

[MaxandMe]

It is crazy. I noticed that there are quite a few "popular" studs here in America, and breeders are having a hard time finding unrelated males.

IMHO

Kristen i am unsure of what you mean by this? and aer these doodle breeders and do you have any of the articles you read or searches you did? i'd like to view them myself.

 

[Napathedoodle]

To clarify, I meant Breeders of Doodles in America and Canada. I can pm the searches and readings I've done, if you're interested.

Similarly, the quote Luckyme posted was from Tegan Park, or Tegan ASD, or whatever they're calling themselves now. Rutland Manor has this on their page about inbreeding:

Line Breeding, In breeding and Out Crossing

The main difference between these lies in the level of breeding one relative to another, as there is no clear cut definition of any of these terms and each breeder has their own idea of where the lines are drawn. Highly incestuous matings such as father or mother to their own progeny, or brother to sister etc are considered by most breeders to be 'inbreeding' whilst others will consider less incestuous matings such as bringing a grandparent back into a line to be line breeding.

Line breeding can be a valuable tool in the hands of a thoroughly experienced breeder who is familiar with the health status debits and credits behind their breeding stock, but in less knowledgable hands can be a recipe for disaster.

Inbreeding co-efficients of up to 30% are considered low in 'pure' breeds. Rutland Manor breeds using an inbreeding co-efficient of less than 10% with most in the range of 0.5% to 3%.

During the development of the Australian Labradoodle, and following diligent research, several other breeds were thoughtfully infused at specifically appropriate times by the Founders, pursuit of the wide and diverse gene pool necessary to build a foundation of robust health in the ASD (Australian Service Dog) Australian Labradoodle, yet at the same time, not sacrificing the standards of soundness, temperament and coat type which had already been achieved.

And this website about Sire genes/ what sires bring to the mix
http://lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/maternalgs.htm

 

[Lucky Me]

I find it interesting how, when you look at a dog's 6 generation pedigree (AKC), most times there is at least close breeding within it, alot of times, 3 or 4.
So, when you say a dog has say...15 Champions in it's background. How many times do you count it? Only once or for the amount of slots it occupies in the pedigree? :?

 

[Doodlesville]

ALL i can say about this thread and some comments is YIKERS

if they cant find unrelated studs thats because there has been such linebreeding and inbreeding thus far ,,which in my 20 + yrs of breeding dogs has always been frowned upon!!

you can always find someone that approves of certain practices ,
that doesnt make it right, nor healthly for any breed or people for that matter

The Labradoodle is a new enough breed that line breeding or inbreeding should NEVER even be considered IMHO
All it does is breed in the negative health in any breed
that practice is done in alot of AKC show dog breeds, why to make the perfect LOOKING dog, for the show ring,
is that truly what our main goal is for the doodle breeds is ?
i know in my program, its for healthy well adjusted dogs for families,service or therapy dogs
im afraid that some breeders have lost sight of the main goal for breeding doodles in the first place

Ok sorry im offa my soap box , but i just couldnt not post to this thread :? :shock: :roll:

 

[Napathedoodle]

It's not line breeding and inbreeding that's the problem. They're trying to avoid that. The problem is that some sires and dams were produced that held all the traits that breeders were looking for, so they were used quite frequently, so many breeders are finding that they all have related lines. So, it'll be interesting to see how the breed develops in later years.

 

[newaustralianlab]

in-breeding

I was reading through your posts today and am somewhat confused about all this inbreeding discussion. If a dam and sire have passed all medical tests such as hips, eyes, elbows, thyroid, etc, does it matter if there was prior in-breeding generations ago so long as healthy pups are regularly produced? I'm getting ready to put down a deposit for one of Hudson Labradoodles pups owned by Curtis Rist. He's the founder of the Australian Labradoodle Protection Society which seems to be endorsed by the original founders of the breed - tp and rm. I would love to receive a PM if anyone is aware of any problems with any of his pups previously sold.

I think breeders who are board members of the American Labradoodle Association of America as well as the ALAA are not allowed to be members of tp, rm, or Curtis Rist's association due to differences in breeding practices. Do I, as a buyer, need to be concerned about this? Is he considered a breeder of "in-bred pups?

I understand there are breeders who are familiar with dogs surrendered to a kill shelter from TP which may be a reason for the some of the friction between associations. In the meantime, there are breeders who are listed on the TP and RM website who are also members of the Amer. Lab. Assoc. of America and the ALAA.

How can Curtis and other Australian doodle breeders still be selling pups for $2,500 if it resulted in "damaged" pups from in-breeding? Would this info. be available to the public? He seems to be very well respected from the research I've done. Why would he spend time and money breeding his in-bred sires and dames if it resulted in problems with his pups. He certainly comes across as a responsible breeder.

If I bought a pup that did develop medical problems, does any association really protect me or help me in any way? I don't think they are liable for anything even though the websites state that medical testing is done in order to be members. I think one has to rely on the breeder. Some associations have great websites but do they offer the buyer any protection? After reading the problems expereinced by Napa the doodle, I'm almost convinced I have to get lucky that my pup will be healthy.

Feedback is very much appreciated.

 

[Lucky Me]

Just for the record Nancy....I don't agree with it! I was just stating facts, things I have observed in my years of breeding. When I worked in a grooming shop,the lady had 10 studs and 20 bitches. I watched alot of things going on that I didn't agrree with, and I also saw the results. I would not do it!

 

[Doodlesville]

Glad to hear it judi,,I have been in the dog industry to some degree for over 30yrs, linebreeding and inbreeding is a train wreck waiting to happen no matter how many marshmellows folks put on top of it to make it sound right

I havent heard of Curtis i dont think, but you are correct about Tp/Rm dogs being dumped at a kill shelter, did he get these dogs from that fiasco/? and now he is breeding them? if i read that correctly,, Im not sure, if i did or not, if that is the case that should tell you something rite there, if i didnt read that right ,,then disreguard that comment
also you might want to be aware that Aust labradoodles have so much poodle infused in them that they at last count could potentially be 15/16ths poodle ,,recently (in last year) it has been admitted that they infused Terriers and Spaniels in the mix,
the reason labradoodles were started in the first place was to breed allergy friendly service and therapy dogs, that were outcrosses Lab to poodle to create healthy dogs (HYBRID VIGOR) continuly infusing poodle in the breed actually take away the hybrid vigor everytime its done,

infusing other breeds such as spaniels and terriers ,which brings in other health concerns into the mix wont help to keep doodles healthy,,,
We all do what we can do as far as testing, but genetics is another thing
just my take on this

 

[Lucky Me]

NewAustralianLab....
I will admit that I found out after the fact, that my dog had a Father/Daughter breeding in the background. Thank goodness the poodle was bred to a lab & thank-goodness she tested good genetically with DNA. In researching poodle backgrounds, I noticed over and over again that there was alot of this, most of the time it was with the ,champion dogs.
One thing you could do that could ease your mind abit, would be to have your dog DNA'd. It's only $49 and test 29 genetic diseases.
http://www.pawsitiveid.net/dnaresults.htm

 

[Napathedoodle]

Ok, newaustralianlab, you're using some information to attack breeders who could quite possibly have no association.

From my understanding, its soley been TP whose done terrible things with her breeding dogs, and she's just opened a puppy mill....

To clarify, the difference of opinion between ALAA and ASD is NOT about line breeding. The two have different breeding standards (which are similar but differences that weren't able to over come), and different views about generations. But, you really should trust your gut. Associations aren't everything. Being associated with different Associations don't guarrantee a healthy pup. There is no such thing as a 100% guarantee, as is evident in Napa. Everything his breeder did was what was supposed to be done, and he's just well, medical prone.

Secondly, the breeders of Australian doodles are NOT selling "damaged" pups.

I've met Curtis personally. He is a responsible breeder. I would have bought a puppy from him, but at the time he didn't accept credit cards which was my preferred method of payment. He also has strong beliefs about training the pups before they leave him, and he doesn't promote his pups so he can spend more time with them, training them, so there's less of a chance of a problem later in life.

If a pup develops medical problems, the only thing to do is pray you've got insurance if they develop a medical problem that is not covered under your warranty.

Napa is a fluke. If you notice, I'm the only one on this website that's got the problems I've had. But, Napa is still a wonderful puppy. Napa's breeder has also offered to take Napa back. But, when I bought Napa, I made the choice to take care of him to the best of my abilities.

But, if you want a dog with no problems, then you shouldn't get a dog, commit yourself to not doing anything if the dog does develop medical problems. My parents have done this, but luckily our dog doesn't have anything wrong.

Think, there have been countless other dogs who haven't had medical problems, but have ended up needing serious medical help- Dexter with the tennis ball, Tanner with bloat, Jonah with the torn paw (i think). Having a dog is like having another child. You need to be prepared that they're going to do stupid stuff, and its going to get them in trouble, and possibly medical trouble.

And to say "you almost believe you need to get lucky to get a healthy puppy" is rediculus since hardly any labradoodles have problems. I could tell you equally as scary stories about plenty of other breeds. My extended family loves Labs. They've had plenty of problems, including hip, elbows, tumors, etc. There are no guarantee when it comes to living things. It just doens't happen.

But, you can also ask for pedigrees and do your own searching. If you feel there's inbreeding, don't go with the match.

I know buying a puppy, especially at $2500 is scary. But, keep in mind that there are no guarantees, and just because one terrible thing happened doesn't mean that its going to happen to you.

 

[KingstonTodd]

two thoughts:

If Aust LD are 15/16ths poodle, does anyone have a feel for the differences between an F1B and the progeny from an F1 x Aust LD. If I were to breed Herhsey (F1), is it worth the $$/effort to breed her to an authentic australian LD, or would i get roughly the same thing from maiting her with a poodle.

Also, the point of the article in Science I posted was that inbreeding was BETTER than unrelated breeding as long as the relationship was further removed than 2nd cousins. I'll think about this for a while (i'll have to draw a family tree), but how close are the genes of 3rd and 4th cousins compared to a grandfather being used to stud a granddaughter.

 

[Napathedoodle]

All Aus LD are not 15/16th poodle. Since, along with this inbreeding discussion comes genetics, and genetics don't say, on I'm supposed to be 3/4 poodle and 1/4 lab, so I must produce a pup that's got more poodle traits than lab traits. That's why there are still labby puppies that are produced from F1b litters, and why labby puppies are produced from Aus LD litters. It's just the luck of the draw. The ratio of lab to poodle was developed by looking at pedigrees, not at the actual combination of genes....

What to breed her to is what you as a breeder wish to develop, and what you deem as qualities that labradoodles should have. If you want a coat that sheds less, you should probably mate with a curlier Australian LD, or a poodle. If you want other qualities, you choose a mate whose going to promote the good qualities of Hershey, while improving the qualities you wish to improve, whatever those may be- if any.


I think I agree with you, KingstonTodd, to a point. Depending on how distant a 3 or 4th cousin is, I would say its ok, as long as I know what was produced out of the "link" member, meaning the one the two potential mates were out of, and if there has been any troubling developments out of any of the matches. Right now, that might not be fisable, it might never be something we can do, but it's something that SHOULD be done. Because all of this information that we're losing now, is stuff that could be looked at when Science has the information to analyze it.

But, mixing mating a dog that has up to 1/4 of the genes the child has, that, I think, is too much for me. I understand that the 3 or 4th generation could still have the same mix, but I guess in my eyes, there could be the possibility of a few new genes that would benefit my line. But, I would really want the "link" member to be quite a distance back in the pedigree

 

[MaxandMe]

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