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Discussion Starter #1
After spending many hours researching the different Raw diets I settled on the Prey Model diet which is simply 80% Raw meat 10% Organ Meat and 10% Bone. The first thing I noticed was the time and energy it takes for a dog to eat a meal. I also noted she seemed to really ENJOY tearing into and stripping the meat off the bones. The recommended amount to feed a dog works like this. You take 2-3% of the dogs optimal adult weight breaking it down to the aforementioned percentages. So for an ideal adult weight of 50#'s you would feed 1-1 1/2 #'s per day. Just so happens a chicken quarter weighs about 1/2-3/4#'s and chicken is the most common protein to start a raw fed dog. (If you are thinking it's going to more expensive than kibble check this out Buying these by the case they cost $24 for a 40#case). Introducing new proteins after a month on chicken I added pork one month, beef the next and lamb to follow. I also feed fish once a week sardine,salmon,jack mackeral for omega 3. Organ meat is easy LIVER is the biggie with kidney,tripe,heart right behind it. What are benefits of raw feeding besides quality control and health? Dental hygiene, Abby will NOT need dental cleanings and the hazards that go with it on a yearly basis. No Allergies or allergic reactions to date and none are expected. Great looking coat and bright clear eyes. Her tongue and gums are the perfect color signifying good health. Less POOP, this one is worth while for you breeders with multiple dogs. Less water intake (raw is a very moist diet) Fewer if any vet visits for all the maladies attributed to what has been called 'Mac Kibble'. Raw fed dogs regulate their own intake. I put the 1/2 picnic shoulder down and pick it up when she stops eating--she does not overeat! I get 10 feedings from a whole picnic shoulder which I buy for $.69 per #. With no training She does not beg for food when we eat. I'm adding a 30 second video of a typical Raw feeding. If you are sensitive to animals gnawing on raw meaty bones please do not watch.
http://good-times.webshots.com/video/30 ... good-times

Lamb Shank Before Doodle
[/URL][/img]
After Doodle
[/URL][/img]
www.rawmeatybones.com has all the info.
Pork Picnic Shoulder from video After Doodle
[/URL][/img]
 

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I am really GLAD you started this post as i just began looking into this diet
and was asking the trainers and owner about it last week.

1. when i cooked for max and peanut last year for 4mos i must say their health was OPTIMAL

2. I am beginning to wonder if the its LESS EXPENSIVE to feed raw
vs kibble.

3. Max has food issues/allergies and i wonder about giving 10% kibble with 90% RAW/homemade
and YES it is VERY MOIST and max did drink less water when on homemade diet unless he ran real hard outside.

4. NOW how do you make sure it's balanced . that's my biggest question and also are you feeding other nutrients and/or supplements?
ie: veggies, fruits, omega 3

5. NOW to switch a doodle over such as my 3 that are now used to kibble with things like pineapple, pumpkin, cooked meats, etc

do you switch slowly like when one changes dogfood?

6. YOU DO FEEED raw meat and no worries about bacteria?
i know TROUT AND SALMON are 2 fish that SHOULD BE cooked

7. any help is greatly appreciated as i felt in past once i got the hang of cooking and amounts etc.......after a while it was no biggie

8. the cost of kibble is getting outrageous and well personally i've been thinking this over for the past 5mos.NOW that i have 3 doodles i wonder more about if RAW is the way to go
My trainers at class all feed their dogs and breeding dogs raw

OK MTD.....handing the floor back to you now
besides the meat what are you feeding and is all meat raw?



4.
 

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I too was interested in a raw diet initially. My concern was not so much cost--I will pay for whatever is best for Dakota. My concern was getting the correct balance of foods. I was looking at the BARF diet which made a lot of sense but by the time I tried to figure out the correct combinations . . . Also, I think it was Jac that read that the natural diet in the wild worked because fur would be ingested with the bones and this aided in digestion . . . But, I'm still interested and will be watching how you like it!
 

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Well I have been feeding all my dogs raw for many years... at least 10 years now. I really believe it is the best for the dogs. I had an older golden who developed tumors around her eyes, after 30 days on the raw diet, the tumors disappeared! I didn't need much more evidence! But it can get to be a real pain to keep fresh raw food on hand at all items for all our canine buddies. I have 3 great Pyrenees who are really hard working dogs guarding the alpacas 24/7 and they get raw only. I thought maybe I'd keep the doodles on a balanced kibble diet, just to make my life a little easier, but they had different plans. They were in the car once when I was stocking up on raw chicken legs at Costco and they got into a package and each devoured about 4 legs before i could stop them! I think they were telling me that if the pyrs get raw foods why shouldn't they? so all 5 dogs now eat raw. The topic of diet in dogs can sometimes get rather opinionated, but this group seems so mellow, I figured I'd enter in. :)

My group gets mostly raw chicken legs, yes the bones too & the bones are a great source of calcium and as long as they are NOT cooked, they wont splinter. The chicken skin is great for the A & D vitamins and their tummies are not troubled by salmonella etc. In 10 years I have never had a problem with this diet. I add green tripe weekly, fruits and veggies occasionally and when I have time I make what I call "dog soup" with some kind of meat (bones removed now because they have been cooked), garlic, carrots and brown rice. I give this to the pyrs on the raw food when it is horribly cold out and the doodles get some too because they smell it cooking and cant wait!
It's really not that hard to switch to raw. Some really good books to read for some basic understanding are: Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats and GIVE YOUR DOG A BONE by Ian Billinghurst. I also like RAW MEATY BONES by Tom Lonsdale .
My dogs all have sparkly white teeth and they have never seen a tooth brush! The poop from dogs on raw diet is wonderful , if poop can be wonderful. :shock: It hardly smells, it's almost white , because their bodies use just about all of it there is no stinky mess left over. This was really a big deal for me with the pyrenees because they share the pastures with grazing animals.
Wow, sorry to ramble on for so long! So I guess you know how I feel about raw food! :)
The doodles are very excited to eat every day too.
Linda
 

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Discussion Starter #6
OK Annmarie here ya go... http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
Feeding Puppies - A Primer
Posted by: "Michelle Morgan" [email protected] enzoinub
Sat Feb 2, 2008 8:00 am (PST)

This comes from one of the Yahoo groups.
This is a public service message that summarizes the nutritional
basics of raw feeding for new raw feeders with puppies. The
information is gathered from this list and the rawfeeding list, as
well as several nutritional resources on the internet which you can
find by googling! I hope new members find it useful. It also applies
to adult dogs - anything that is specific to puppies and not to adult
dogs is cited as such (re calcium absorption and vitamin E)

Puppies need meaty meaty meaty bones: Puppies need more protein than
adult dogs as they grow at an incredible rate. Protein contains
essential amino acids, the building blocks of your future dog. Muscle
meat is a great source of protein, but it contains a lot of
phosphorus and is low in calcium.

That is why puppies need bones (and other connective tissue like
cartilage). These provide biologically balanced minerals, especially
calcium, but also copper, iodine, iron, magnesium, zinc, and
manganese. The best and safest way to provide balanced calcium and
phosphorus is by feeding raw meaty bones that have between 10 and 15%
edible bone in them. Puppy does not have to eat all the bone, if
sufficient edible bone is offered, in general puppies will get enough
calcium for normal skeletal development. Supplemental calcium should
not be fed to growing pups. Puppies do not have a mechanism for
controlling over-absorption of calcium, which leads to a
calcium/phosphorus imbalance and abnormal skeletal growth.

Puppies need fat in their diets ñ high quality animal fat, which
means the raw fat that comes attached to the meat. Some trimming of
incredibly fatty meats is ok, but don't trim drastically.

Puppies need to eat organs. About 8% of the total diet should be a
mix of organs which provide an enzyme-rich mixture of protein, B-
complex vitamins, vitamins A and D, some vitamin C, and essential
fatty acids EPA, DHA, and AA, along minerals such as manganese,
selenium, zinc, potassium and copper. Liver has a high iron, Vitamin
A and B12, and folate content, as well as niacin and pantothenic
acid. Like muscle meat, organs contain a lot of phosphorus (and
potassium) and are low in calcium. Heart counts as a muscle meat more
than it does as an organ. So do chicken gizzards.

Green tripe is a great food for puppies. It is the stomach from grass
eating animals which contains beneficial bacteria, essential fatty
acids and other nutrients, and it has a very good calcium/phosphorus
ratio.

Puppies need approximately double the amount of vitamin E as adult
dogs. It is found in organs, (liver, heart, kidneys, brains) and in
red meats in moderate amounts, and in eggs and fish in plentiful
amounts. The essential fatty acid DHA (Omega 3) is also plentiful in
fish and in organs like brains, kidneys, and liver.
In summary, if you feed a variety of raw meaty (and I mean meaty)
bones, with an overall average of 10 to 15% edible bone, and you feed
some organs that add up to about 8% of the diet, you've got all the
bases covered.

If bone percentage strays much higher than these values, you may be
feeding too much bone at the expense of much needed protein and
throwing off the calcium/phosphorus ratio ñ which can interfere with
proper bone formation. If you fed primarily chicken necks, wings, and
frames, for example, your bone percentage would be in the
neighborhood of 50-60% or higher. That's not good.

If organs are not fed, the diet may be lacking in vitamins and fatty
acids, iron, and other necessary stuff. You could make up some of
this in eggs and other food items, but organs are ideal. Dogs that
don't like liver can usually be converted by partially freezing it,
or offering it lightly seared the first few times.

Organs are rich, and generally should be fed in small portions along
with the regular meal. Feeding a "liver only" or "organs only" meal
is pretty much a guaranteed way of giving your dog the runs. Organs
need not be fed every day ñ you just want to get an average of 8%
over the long run.

Do not be tempted to feed more than 8% of organs, especially if you
are using mainly liver. This is too much of a good thing, and your
pup will be overloaded with non water soluble vitamins which he or
she cannot eliminate. Too much vitamin A will interfere with vitamin
D activity which is essential for calcium absorption, and cause
brittle bones prone to fracture.

If you feel like you need to supplement for Omega 3 (grain fed meat
animals are low in Omega 3 compared to grass fed animals) do so with
fish oil. While some form of Omega-3 can be found in flaxseed,
walnuts and a few other foods, the most beneficial form of Omega-3 -
containing 2 fatty acids, EPA and DHA - can be found only in fish.
Do not supplement with Cod Liver Oil. Cod Liver Oil is like liverÖ it
contains vitamins A and D and using it as a supplement in addition to
raw feeding could be overdoing it on both counts.

Do not supplement with other vitamins. The best source of nutrients
is from whole foods, and a balanced and varied diet. Supplements are
only needed if a dog cannot receive all of the nutrients it needs
because it either can't or doesn't eat enough, or can't or doesn't
eat a variety of species appropriate foods. Supplementing vitamins
and minerals is never a good substitute for healthy feeding. First of
all, vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that imbalanced will interfere
with the correct functioning or absorption of other vitamins and
nutrients. Secondly, randomly supplementing because something sounds
like a good idea can lead to providing excessive levels or one or
more nutrients if you do not know what puppy is already getting in
their food. Calcium is one of the most commonly over supplemented
items.

Michelle
 

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OK i NOW have another question as i see the Sense in RAW diets
and when growing up on Harkers Island NC we didnt' have dogfood back then.

Question: i have 3 dogs and if i were to feed all three this diet

a) is there a territorial issue i'd may be dealing with at 1st amongst themselves?

b) Would DAVE or I or any family run the risk of getting bacteria from them since they do kiss us

c) Max's tummy is sensitive to so many foods a diet like this perhaps could help him but i would also have to include peanut and beau
as what i feed one, i feed all

ps mtd: for treats i too only used cooked food like chicken or cheese
 

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AHHH...WE LOVE THIS TOPIC...
The raw food diet is wonderful for your dogs. We started feeding Kelsey Raw chicken drum sticks 3 years ago when she developed multiple ear infections. Crunch crunch , its like potato chips to dogs...great for Jaw development and teeth cleaning as mentioned above.

As it turns out, the Corn & wheat in her Kibble was the culprit..the infections went away & her coat become very soft & very shiny...

We first started her gradually on the raw food. Giving chicken wings or drum sticks, for 2 weeks, then each week would add something different, to see how her system would react. Now I make stews for them with added vegies, like sweet potato, brown rice, flax seed ground up,eggs, green beans, the list goes on...
If you do this diet you will definatley see a difference in health & coat softness.

You have to start slow, but your dogs will most likely enjoy it.
It is hard to think of raw chicken, beef, liver, chicken hearts, tripe, not causing illness, but after 4 years she is still Alive & Kicking....

When we got Kozmo, we too would give him raw food. He was a more slow eater, but still enjoyed it. They never fought over any chicken legs, but Kozmo is very polite and always waits until kelsey is done before he eats...

If there is a local butcher nearby , ask him if he can give you any left overs , like heart , liver, kidney etc. or maybe he can buy you a case when he does his ordering. A local butcher did this for us.

We don't have a freezer so we just buy some things at the grocery store too. We stock up on things when on sale.
The bottom line is that you cant go wrong with it. Just don't COOK the bones but you can cook the plain meat like the hamburg or chicken if it makes you feel better.
The Whole Dog Journal has excellent articles on this topic & only costs 20.00 for 12 issues. Well worth its cost for the educated content on all topics related to doggie's Health & Training.
Here is a page with all the topics in past issues if anyone is interested in the raw diet with recipes also.
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/raw_homemade_diets/xref.html
 

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Ok, we are going to pick up our new doodle on Thursday. He is almost 6 months and weighs 40lbs. I want to start him on the raw food diet. How can I transition him. Also do you feed only 1 time per day or do you do twice a day?
 

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another question: how do you deal with bacteria concerns? meaning if dogs are kissing/licking you at times? and what are you using to disinfect chopping blocks/boards (please humor me-thanks)
 

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MaxandMe said:
another question: how do you deal with bacteria concerns? meaning if dogs are kissing/licking you at times? and what are you using to disinfect chopping blocks/boards (please humor me-thanks)
I clean the kitchen the same way I would if was preparing our dinner with uncooked meat...as for kisses.....Gus has to go outside IMMEDIATELY after eating or he piddles in the house. I think his stomach expands and it presses on his bladder. I hope this changes when he become more full grown. They are outside for at least 10 minutes before they come in and give us kisses. Dogs saliva is antibacterial, so they clean themselves. we have never got sick from a post raw doodle kiss, but we wait a little bit to give their nateral juices time to kill the bugs. Remember the saying "lick your wounds"? it comes from the practise of letting a dog lick your wounds from battle to disinfect them. kinda gross but apparently it worked.
 

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Linz81 said:
Ok, we are going to pick up our new doodle on Thursday. He is almost 6 months and weighs 40lbs. I want to start him on the raw food diet. How can I transition him. Also do you feed only 1 time per day or do you do twice a day?
We switched cold turkey to RAW (haha puns!). I have read about mixing kibble and raw and that is bad, they digest at such different rates it can mess up the bowls. Just start on RAW when you bring him home. The first meal or two may take some learning on how to eat a big slab of meat but they get it pretty fast. Gus was 4 months when we got him, and his first meal with us was a chicken thigh and back. We feed 2% of adult weight per day in 2 meals (1% per meal, makes it easy to remember and buy.....how much beef and liver do i need?)
 

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This sounds very intriguing but what do you do when you need to board your dog at the kennel? I guess put them on kibble for the short term....
 

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Calimom said:
This sounds very intriguing but what do you do when you need to board your dog at the kennel? I guess put them on kibble for the short term....
I called around and found two kennels in our area that were ok with RAW. One would feed their dogs RAW and for 2.50$/day extra would feed yours as well. Another one had a little refridgerator to keep RAW food for boarded dogs. When we left for xmas it was about 10 days and they kept some in their freezer for our doods. its not as weird as one might think, and a good kennel should have a solution for a FAW fed dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Great I am glad to see I'm not alone :) I like the potato chip analogy. When Abby downs a chicken quarter you can hear the crunching in the next room. She always looks so pleased with herself after a meal too! I've worked in Hospitals for 25 years so I'm used to infectious precautions. We do wash our hands a lot around here which is a carryover from work We keep waterless antibacterial soap on the counter in the kitchen where we feed. I wash Abby's paws and beard after eating not because of the kisses, it's so she doesn't track stuff into other rooms of the house. We have trained her to eat of a towel on the kitchen floor which we pick up after the meal then clean the floor with some AB spray cleaner. When Abby arrived I switched her to Raw. The diet takes some tweaking to avoid the runs at times such as when you introduce a new protein. This week it's Lamb shanks and of course our little girl had the runs last night necessitating a 3am walk :cry: She did not have an accident BTW. I discovered she has her own SOUND for having to eliminate. I discovered it on the boat one day when she had to go. She sat in front of me shaking her front paws and groaned. I headed for an island where she immediately pooped. Now when I hear that sound I walk her and sure enough she is communicating. For these occasions we keep canned pumpkin and SEB (slippery elm bark) powder which firms things up overnight. Overfeeding causes these same symptoms. We were feeding 3x a day however our schedules have reduced that to 2x a day with training treats filling the void. Puppies need 3 feedings a day according to the experts. Sometimes dogs are so conditioned to eat McKibble they don't recognize meat as food :roll: so you ribbon the meat ON THE BONE so they can pick at it and figure it out pretty quickly :wink: For an adult weight of say 50 lbs you would feed between 1-1.5 lbs per day divided into three meals. Almost everyone starts their dog on chicken. Turkey is considered a NEW PROTEIN. Don't assume it will be tolerated like chicken :!: Linz I'd throw that pup a chicken quarter then stand back and enjoy the show :D Thanks Raw feeders!
 
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I find this very interesting and would love to raw feed but with my traveling it is impossible. You can't give RAW some days and then kibble others can you? If that is possible I could do it.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
hmz819 said:
I find this very interesting and would love to raw feed but with my traveling it is impossible. You can't give RAW some days and then kibble others can you? If that is possible I could do it.
In Dr Lonsdales book he tells of starting feeding raw 1 day a week, 2 a week etc. It wasn't until they went 100% raw that they found out that was the way to go. What can be simpler than buying a chicken? The thing to remember is stay away from additives they add to packaged chicken etc. Use fresh human grade food. Teach the dog to eat on a towel like we did, great for traveling!!! Check out
www.rawmeatybones.com

Here's some testimonials:
1a.
raw breeder and pups.
Posted by: "Alan & Andrea Southern" [email protected] seawyndriana
Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:28 pm (PST)

We breed Standard poodles and have raw fed from 1/1/2003 and have had 7 litters fed on raw and into 2nd generation raw fed dogs and 4th generation in cats.
I dont feed much different while pregnat just more, all thought some times the girls are more interested in ofal that RMB at the later stages of gestation and after they have given birth.
I start giving the pups chicken frames to suck on at 3-4 weeks and then ground frames, wings and necks plus sheep tongues and hearts. I let the mum wean the pups herself and this works very well.
Just had a litter of 6, 3 weeks ago that was a week and half early, I had to tube feed a couple for almost two weeks before I lost them but the other 4 are ok, with 3 that are quite big and one that is very small but at the same stage of development as the others with eyes open and walking etc.

Alan & Andrea
KITNKABOODLE BURMESE
WYKHAM BRITISH SHORTHAIR
QUINIVA STANDARD POODLES
http://users. chariot.net. au/~wykham
Aldinga Beach
South Australia
Australia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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1b.
Re: raw breeder and pups.
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected] rodlinboxers
Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:33 am (PST)

Thanks Alan and Andrea for your reply. It is great to get information from other breeders on what they do.
Our Vets are always blaming every problem we have on the raw food.

Linda

>
> We breed Standard poodles and have raw fed from 1/1/2003 and have had 7 litters fed on raw and into 2nd generation raw
> fed dogs and 4th generation in cats.

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2a.
Testimonial - Dog
Posted by: "vlkilroy" [email protected] vlkilroy
Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:47 pm (PST)

> 1). Type of Pet - Dog, cat, ferret - or all three!

Dog (Gus) and cat (Bronte)

> 2). Age at switch and how long now feeding raw.

Gus just in the last 2 weeks. He's just over 4 months old. We've
tried to get Bronte onto chicken necks but she's not interested.
She's 12 years old and I think is pretty much addicted to kibble.

> 3). What was fed before switch (please include brand names) - and
what the diet is now.

Gus was on Royal Canin and chicken mince as recommended by his
breeder. He's now on Chicken breast, Chicken thighs on the bone and
I've just started including chicken liver.

> 4). Why you switched.

The evidence was overwhelming that a raw diet was best. Everything I
read made me want to get Gus off the processed food and onto a raw
diet ASAP.

> 5). Was it because of a specific condition - if so, what.

No, none.

> 6). Has that condition improved, disappeared, remained the same?

N/A

> 7). Vets visits - have they decreased since changing to raw?

He had gastro when he was 12 weeks old which put him in hospital on a
drip for a night. Apart from thatm, his vaccinations, and just
recently getting his nails clipped, he hasn't needed to see a vet.

> 8). Owners opinion on - teeth, skin, coat condition, temperament,
general condition etc etc. since changing diet.

Even though he's only been on a raw diet for nearly 2 weeks, Gus's
coat is softer and shinier than ever. It's just lovely. He's got no
doggy smell at all (although I'm not sure if puppies get doggy smell
or not) and his breath only ever smells of fish and that's right
after he's had sardines.

> 9). Assuming you have visited your vet since switching to raw, has
he/she made any comment about any improvement in your pet's overall
> health.

I got Gus's toenails clipped with a vet I hadn't seen before only a
couple of days ago and she commented on how healthy he looked. She
also asked me what I was feeding him and was really happy when I told
her about his raw diet.

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2b.
Re: Testimonial - Dog
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected] rodlinboxers
Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:32 am (PST)

1). Type of Pet - Dog, cat, ferret - or all three!

dogs - Boxers 4>
2). Age at switch and how long now feeding raw. feeding raw for 7 years
1 - Reba 2nd generation
2. - Jordan since 8 weeks old (2yrs now)
3. Zoom - since 3 1/2 months ( 10 months)

3). What was fed before switch (please include brand names) - Jordan - Kirkland ( Cosco brand)
Reba always raw
Zoom - not sure
4). Why you switched.
In 1993 I asked a homeopathic vet about preventing certain injuries - he said feeding raw red meat would help so we
added raw meat to our kibble
In 2001 we had a 6 year old that had pancreatitis - vets said there really wasn't anything that could be done and it
would get progressive. I contacted Ian Billinghurst about a raw diet for pancreatits and put her on his diet and she
lived pancreatitis free for another more than 6 years.
We decided we would then switch our whole kennel and haven't turned back.

5). Was it because of a specific condition - see above

6). Has that condition improved, disappeared, remained the same?

7). Vets visits - have they decreased since changing to raw?
yes drastically
8). Owners opinion on - teeth, skin, coat condition, temperament,
general condition etc etc. since changing diet.
great white teeth, lots more energy, fewer skin problems, fewer digestive problems, Just better general health stools
much better, no more coccidia in our puppies no more kennel cough - we used to get kennel cough once a year.

9). Assuming you have visited your vet since switching to raw, has
The vet we go to never saw our dogs on Kibble but all but one in the clinic isn't in favor of the raw diet.

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Our neighbors have chickens and turkeys and lots of farm birds. When Shelby was with us, the occasional chicken would slip into our yard. Shelby would devour a chicken a week probably for about a month. Once she even got her paws on a GOOSE! That was interesting.
So I guess if you DON"T have your pup on the Raw diet, sometimes they will find a way to get it themselves. I am sure she was trying to tell us something. :lol:
 

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our neighbor hunts during in-seasons as the deer got overpopulated on our 6 acres, were causing much damage, deer poop was worse than geese here, and the deer also caused 3 really bad accidents in front of my house. soooooooo i let him thin out the population a bit

BUT when he gutted a deer last season he left the guts in my yard in the woods. Before we knew it MAX was on it faster than a fly on poop. :roll:
and still checks the same area daily :roll: i asked my neighbor to gut it in his yard but we'd love soem vension :wink:

years ago i also had a bluetick coonhound "Beacon" who brought home a half of a deer leg one night. boy was he ever sad when i took that away
and I loved how freaked out my inlaws were at the time heh heh heh
 

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That brings me to my next question...
My husband is an avid deer hunter, problem is he is the only one who eats the meat. He usually ends up giving ir to a little old man that is always tickled to get it! We were discussing the raw diet last night. He asked if the deer meat would work on the diet.
Of course I replied let ask my crystal ball...aka the doodle net forum :lol:
 
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