[KellyDoodles]

We had a deposit on a puppy that was due the beginning of June. Unfortunatly the litter only produced one puppy It's sad and frustrating to have to start the search over again. I really wanted to get a puppy this summer so that we can get the house training out of the way during warm weather. I do have one breeder I have been in e-mail contact with who might have a puppy for us. We want a mulit-gen as I understand that is our best bet for getting a non-shedding coat (although I know there is never 100% guarentee). I have mild allergies so we want to do the right thing.

We are in Columbia, MO. If there are any breeders out there who think they can help us with a puppy, please let me know. We really don't have strong opinions about anything except that it be the curly wool coat and NOT black (that's my weird husband, he doesn't like black)

Thank you,

Kelly

 

[lisarundell]

It must have been heart breaking not to get your puppy Check out the idog.biz site they have a list of breeders with their endorsement, I think there may be a few that breed multigenerational doodles. Good luck and let us know when you find your puppy.

 

[Jac]

Hi Kelly,
I am sorry you are so disappointed. It is rough to get your hopes up and have them dashed like that...unfortunately, breeding is a game of chance sometimes.
There are many good breeders and you are right about multigens as opposed to F1 Labradoodles, but if you get a good breeder, they can usually help you find an F1B that would work nicely for your situation.
I personally breed F1Bs (Black though, so this is not a sales pitch :wink: ) and they have gorgeous coats and I have only had 2 that shed. One was so Lab-like that I was not surprised at all...the other had a curly coat and I think that her shedding will decline as she reaches her first birthday (her mother, my F1, shed until then and stopped.)
More importantly, your allergies...shedding is not really a factor in allergies. You can have non-shedding dogs and still be allergic to their saliva.
My husband is allergic (very much...asthma too) and he has never had a problem with our shedding F1s. Still, F1 dogs are more iffy.
So, my suggestion is to find a good breeder, one who will work with you, and they can usually tell you what their pups will be like. (Especially if they have had other puppies from the same parents.)
All of that being said, there are many resources for good breeders. Here is one list from the International Labradoodle Association (their name has changed and I don't know what it is now...but it is a very reputable organization and most of the breeders that I trust are listed there.)

MO

Blue Moon Australian Labradoodles
ILA Member # ILAI-10180-0905 Kathy Price Troy, MO 63379


Missouri Doodles
ILA Member # ILAI-10207-1105 Marcia Coonrod Bethel, MO 63434


Ozark Labradoodles
ILA Member # ILAY-30010-0804 Monty Cornelison Lebanon MO 65536


Sleepy Hollow Dog Kennels
ILA Member # ILAY-30093-1005 Lee Ann Biesemeyer Warrensburg

 

[dixiedi]

Kelly found a multi-gen from Jane at LIncoln Manor and was getting him yesterday I believe.

Kelly, are you there? We are dying to see pics

 

[dixiedi]

Ok, so I'm slow, I read this thread before the thread Kelly wrote about getting Farley. So, please ignore :roll:

 

[Maureen]

Kelli, congrats on getting Farley.

But can I bring up the concept that a multigen is the best bet for a low/nonshedding Doodle?

Is this what multigen breeders say? If so why?

I have seen multigens with coats that could have been F1!
I don't mind it, but it's true.

What am I missing here?

Seems like the f1b has the best chance of non-shedding coat strictly by the percentages. And I breed/sell f1b's so I hate to sound defensive, but in my head this 75/25% ratio seems logical to me

And a woolly/fleecy coat is the same no matter how many generations it came in, isn't it?

Other breeders, please tell me what I am missing?

 

[Jac]

Hi Maureen, for the most part, I agree with what you are saying...although I think that the idea behind a multigen is that you take two of the best (coats/temperaments/health/etc.) dogs you can get (in this case, those who have been bred multiple generations with proven breeding stock) and "solidify" the good traits...still, as you say, sometimes a throw-back comes along.
Also, the buyer needs to be aware that anyone can claim to breed multigen dogs...so it is up to the buyer to find out, through pedigree searches, what that means...
To me, a multigen is an offspring from several generations of breeding to Labradoodles...and the Labradoodles used for mating are proven. It becomes more muddy when other breeds are tossed in...and the whole thing gets confusing...
I, too, breed F1Bs and find them to be absolutely wonderful dogs! They have the great traits of the Lab and yet have beautiful, lush coats from the Poodle...a very good combination, indeed. Still, I do hope to someday introduce good multigen stock too.

 

[dixiedi]

Hi all, I would just like to add that several years ago when I was researching the Labradoodle and considering breeding them (I had so much to learn, and still do) that I visited with several breeders of different generations of Labradoodles. It was all so new and with each contact I made, my excitement grew. I was head over heals in love with the Labradoodle long before I ever started breeding. The real turning point as to how far I wanted to go with my breeding program was when I had the good fortune to be able to visit and meet Bonnie Patrick of Heartsong Labradoodles and her family of Labradoodles, which at this point consisted of 3 I believe. I doubt that Bonnie even remembers me but she lived in Lexington, Ky. at the time and she was very kind to let me visit and ask questions. So, what I'm getting at is this, her Australian Labradoodles made such an impression on me that I knew almost immediately that my ultimate goal was to breed the multi-gens. It is not only the look but the temperaments and the almost humanlike traits that they have. It is hard to describe unless you have actually been around these superb animals, then you know what I am talking about. I love all the generations and each one is wonderful in its own right. You just have to know which one is right for you and find a breeder that has the knowledge to help you make the right decision for you, one that is not just trying to make a sell.

 

[Maureen]

Thanks, Di & Jacque,
I think you make good points but this is what I am trying to say: WHO is saying that multigens are the best non-shedders for pet purposes? I think it sounds like the MULTIGEN SELLERS (breeders) are the ones saying that, am I right? or is this like the original myth that all labradoodles are low-shed dogs?

Now, I know that most of my f1b doodle puppies are not going to shed, based on the individual coats. I know that because like you and others I have learned about coats, even tho I know that I can't make that exact promise. reputably.

And I have seen multigens that I would NEVER promise as non-shedding dogs, based on texture, thus the allowance for backcrossing to a poodle, for coat improvement.

I love the differences and the contributions to Doodle-lovers that ALL generations make. But I'm trying to get someone to admit or clarify how the myth got started that multigens are the best for non-shedding, in a pet home. It doesn't make sense to me, since each dog is an individual hybrid!

As for choosing breeding stock, I understand what you are saying Jac, about coat selection but I'm talking about pet homes and buying a puppy on the internet, where a woolly or fleecy (low shed) coat is the same in ANY generation isn't it? That is, if someone has done their homework, they could choose the one or two low-shed coats in an F1 litter, right?

 

[KellyDoodles]

To answer Maureen's question, I am just going to ditto what Di daid. The multi-gens lineage in known for several generations back. We have Farley's for 4 or 5 back, so back to his great-great-great grandparents, I think (I'd have to pull out his book to check and I'm too lazy to get off the sofa, plus I'd wake him, cutting into my computer time, LOL!) Anyway, not only the coat was important to us, but getting a calm dog with known personalities in it's lineage, because our younger son was hysterically afraid of dogs and is still very very nervous around dogs he knows and pretty close to hysteria around dogs he doesn't. Farley is 11.5 weeks old, and he is a puppy and has his puppy personality. But he is also very calm, doesn't bark unless he's playing, quiets immediatly when told (most of the time, sometimes it takes two quiet commands, but that's usually at night)

We considered an F1b (and in fact are trying to get my husband's son and dil to get an F1b from our breeder, Jane of Lincoln Manor Labradoodles) but we were afraid the 75% poodle may not give us the personality we felt we needed for the best fit with out family.

 

[Maureen]

thanks for sharing Kelly...I think our posts sorta crossed in cyberspace

what breeds do you think contributed to the temperment you got in Farley, if not the Lab & poodle?

Temperment is another question, but thanks for sharing about Farley.

Altho I wish you could meet our loving mellow f1b's! I think if Jane's multigen is a mellow baby than her f1b's probably will be, too. But the coat issue is more what I'm talking about.

Did Jane tell you that multigens are the best for non-shedding? Or another breeder?

Please don't misunderstand, it's ok, wherever that got started but it does confuse me, so I'm trying to learn. I try to educate people who contact me regardless of whether they adopt one of our puppies, and often that education focuses on the temperment of a standard poodle, and how great they are, by the way. I can't speak about miniatures, since I don't own one yet.

thank you!

 

[Jac]

I understand your question, Maureen...you want to know if this is just advertising hype or proven fact. I don't think that can be answered because I think you will find both.

In my opinion, the Aussie Multigen lines, even though I have some strong feelings against what is happening with them now, have good reason to make the claim. I think that the sheer experience of breeding so long, looking for this quality, gives them that level of expertise. Still, I DON'T agree with them that F1Bs are not Labradoodles! :lol:

I think that they are trying to crush a new market and tell the public that the coats of F1Bs and US Multigens are inferrior and not consistent...

I totally agree with what Diane has said, and I know that she has A LOT of breeding experience to back up her beliefs...so, I am trusting those breeders who do their research and who have years of experience...and I trust that they are correct in their claims...BUT I have serious doubts about many, many other breeders who use the "non-shedding" claim as a marketing tool...because it just isn't so...at least not always...so get this huge gut reaction when I read advertisements from the "up and comimg" breeders who write glowing ads...

I don't know that we will ever have an answer to your question. Yes, the multigen breeders are saying that they have the best dog for non-shedding...and, frankly, if the multi is from a good line, I tend to agree...BUT so many (and there are thousands) breeders make that claim and they have nothing to back it up...it is still, and always will be, let the buyer beware! (And do your research!! :wink: )

 

[Maureen]

Thanks, Jac. I have seen and bred f1's that do not shed, and frankly, they are puppies that are more typically "f1b" coats. And so I think that a doodle coat is either shedding, or non-shedding, period! Because what I know, (or think I know) of hybrids is that there are even multigens (out of Australia) that shed! I've seen that myself on an Aussie site.

I'm trying to detach the breeding part of my mind; Because to maximize the number of non-shedding coats in a litter, one WOULD want the best coats in choosing breeding stock.

For a pet-quality Doodle, if 75/25% is not enough of a non-shedding dog, what is?

Seriously, I believe I could help someone go to an f1 litter and find a puppy (pick of the litter, admittedly) that is a good low-shed candidate.

I have seen multigen Doodles that were just as close to a borderline coat as an F1 so I don't think that the individual multigen, within a given litter, can escape its hybrid status, because of the beautiful nature of mixing dna.

These forums are such a help for all of us to learn, so I guess I just wanted to poke a hole in the thinking (if anyone is thinking this) that the ONLY or even BEST way to get a non-shedding dog is to look at or only consider multigens. As Diane has said so well, there are GOOD reasons for considering a multigen Doodle. And I support that! But I think it is either hype or mis-information for the shedding quality to be the best reason for a multigen from US or anywhere. I hope that helps anyone thinking I am criticizing multigens, or multigen breeders for the quality of their dogs. I would be equally suspicious of a breeder of f1's who said that they are low-shed, even most of the time.

Bottom line (in my opinion): This, for a pet-owner is a myth/fact hybrid!
lol.

Having said that, I understand and support multigen breeding, and would like to expose all the crap coming from Down Under about superiority, as you (Jac) have mentioned. I LOVE the multigen dogs and breeders I have met! And the crud doesn't apply to any of the US breeders here, near as I can tell. And personally I might decide to get to multigen status with our Lab/Poodle hybrids. I have no interest in the Aussie lines, personally.

 

[Jac]

That is exactly my thinking...that the buyers should research the claims and look, logically, at what is being "promised"...because when you deal with nature...it is an educated guess, at best...you can never be absolutely certain.

So, you find a breeder you trust and even when that breeder says, "there is a possibility of shedding" and "here is what I base my breeding on...and here are the results I have seen/know"...you can trust them... it is the breeder that says, "no shedding...no allergies!" that are probably selling snake oil! (F1, F1B, or Multi!)

 

[dixiedi]

As breeders, it is our responsibility to educate our buying public. There is always going to be those breeders that promise this, guarantee that when all they are doing is trying to ride on the coattails of the ones who have done their research and who are trying to breed the best and do what is right by the Labradoodle, whether it be Australian, American, Multi, F1 or F1b. It all comes down to, as Jac says, finding a breeder you can trust to help you find the Labradoodle that fits your needs. As responsible breeders, we want nothing more than to place our puppies in forever homes and when untruths are told, it comes back to bite you in the butt and it isn't worth it down the road. Being honest and upfront about all aspects of the Labradoodle and your breeding program are what is going to generate good references which in turn is going to make your Labradoodles sought after and give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside If I don't have what someone is looking for, I am happy to pass them on to a fellow breeder who does have what they are looking for. Maureen is very good about this also, she has sent me several buyers and I am forever indebted to her. I guess I haven't really answered your question but I agree with what Jac says, lots of breeders are advertising having multi's for sale when they are not what I would call a multi-gen so again "BUYER BEWARE" :!:

 

[Maureen]

thanks, Di!
your thoughts are well said too. You are right about our responsibility, and I would take it a tad bit farther: I see it as my responsibility to CORRECT mis-conceptions about the various generations of Labradoodles.

so let me ask you this....and I know Archie is still a little guy.... :wink:

would you promise puppies from Archie to be non-shedding JUST because he is a multigen Doodle?

I think the answer is no, cuz you are honest. That's all.

And one other thought I should say here...we cannot control if buyers (not breeders) are perpetuating something about Doodles, of course.

hey, speaking of passing on buyers...do you have any chocolate females? I know someone who wants one!

 

[dixiedi]

Maureen, I would never feel comfortable guaranteeing a non-shedding dog no matter if it is an F1b or a multi.

And, yes, I do have a chocolate female. She just turned 8 wks old last Saturday and she is gorgeous and has a beautiful, wavy coat on her. Are they wanting an F1? She is "Katie May" on my website. Let me know, thanks again girlfriend

 

[Maureen]

thanks, Di; she wants an F1b...if that's what you have, email me and I'll pass it on.

as for the guarantees, thank you! That's exactly what I'm talking about. Multigens shouldn't be marketed as the best for non-shedding, in my opinion either.

 

[KellyDoodles]

<<what breeds do you think contributed to the temperment you got in Farley, if not the Lab & poodle?
Temperment is another question, but thanks for sharing about Farley.
Altho I wish you could meet our loving mellow f1b's! I think if Jane's multigen is a mellow baby than her f1b's probably will be, too. But the coat issue is more what I'm talking about.>>

More than breed, I think it is having mellow parent dogs of mellow parent dogs of mellow parent dogs. And knowing those parent dogs for many generations past. Of course it's not a sure-fire thing, but I do think it plays into it.

Did Jane tell you that multigens are the best for non-shedding? Or another breeder?

I have been reading everyting I can about Labradoodles for three years, way before I ever met Jane. In fact, we were supposed to get a dog from a different breeder, and it fell through, and we just lucked out that Jane happened to have some pups from a large litter that hadn't been sold and my husband agreed to getting a dog a bit earlier than originally planned. I felt that in my research, I came across a lot of people who got F1 and some F1bs that shed or that bothered allergies, while it was rare for me to hear of someone who had these issues with a multi-gen. And because the Labradoodle started in Australia, my husband was adament that we get a dog that came from the Australian blood lines. Again, it goes back to knowing the parents several generations back and feeling we were getting the dog we expected.

 

[Tai]

Australian Labradoodles

Hi Everyone,

I just thought I'd add my comments here. I'm an Australian Labradoodle breeder.

These are the differences I see between the multigen (Australian Labradoodle) coats and the earlier generation coats. First let me say I think ALL types of Labradoodles are wonderful dogs. Let me also say I never tell people my AL's are non-shedding. I say very low to non-shedding. When I say non-shedding in this message I mean very low to non-shedding.

From my experience and research I do think Australian Labradoodles (AL's) have the highest chance for being non-shedding. Yes, there are AL's who have shedding coats, just as there are F1Bs with shedding coats. I think it's pretty rare to get shedding AL's if you breed two non-shedding AL's together. It does happen occasionally though. I see quite a few shedding F1B puppies though. It's often that you will get mostly non-shedders but in almost every litter of F1Bs I see there's at least one shedder in the litter. Maybe that's not the norm but that is what I have seen on other breeder's websites. I think out of the AL litters you might get one shedder in 5 or 10 litters.

The other thing about AL's is that because they are multigens I think they are more consistent in terms of coat and temperament. If I breed two fleece coat AL's together I will almost always get all fleece coats. When people reserve my puppies I tell them I'm expecting fleece coats. Most of my puppy buyers like to know that we are working toward a breed with a consistent coat and temperament.

Again, I'm not saying AL's are better. I just thought I'd add my thoughts to the group.

Tai
Morning Smile Labradoodles