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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking for mini-labradoodle pup and have a couple of questions about processes by which these dogs are typically bred.

1. Any advantages/disadvantages/problems with a puppy bred through artificial insemination, rather than traditional mating of male and female parent dogs?

2. Anything to recommend or argue against breeding of a regular, full-sized labradoodle mother to toy (rather than miniature) poodle father?

Thanks for any input you all can provide.

Kevin
 

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Not a breeder so don't have def answers but I would think breeding a Large dog to a small one could cause Delivery problems for the small dog - they don't normally have puppies the size of a lab and they could if you breed to a lab coz you never know what genetics will throw - but as I said, not a breeder, we have quite a few who will most likely be along and can advise on that
 

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1. Any advantages/disadvantages/problems with a puppy bred through artificial insemination, rather than traditional mating of male and female parent dogs?
hi Kevin,
I have tried to breed a Miniature (12") Poodle to my 18" Labradoodle for a smaller F1b Labradoodle. The first time the semen wasn't shipped properly, thanks to US Customs, from another breeder, and the second time it didn't take between my own Mini and Doodle.

I have never read of, nor have I heard of any adverse results to the PUPPIES from an Artificial Insemination, altho for the breeder there is a risk of the AI process not being succesful, as well as costly with no results. That seems to be an (understandable) factor in the higher cost of the Miniature Labradoodles.


2. Anything to recommend or argue against breeding of a regular, full-sized labradoodle mother to toy (rather than miniature) poodle father?
My experience and limited observation is that the more diverse the size difference, the more liklihood of proportional issues on the Puppies. That might not be the case for all breeders or dogs, but that is my concern, and why I have chosen a fairly small standard Doodle to breed with an average Miniature. If I could have found a 14" Miniature I would have used him, or purchased him!

I hope this helps
 

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From what I've seen, typically, the dad is the toy or moyen poodle, and the mom is a lab or an f1. From what I've heard, its dangerous to breed toy and moyen poodles to toy and moyen poodles because they're so small. But I'm not a breeder. I don't think there's anything wrong with AI.
 

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Kristen, just to clarify, the AKC has 3 sizes of poodles and I think this is the size/height standards:
Toy = 10" or less
Miniature = taller than 10" but not more than 15"
Standard = Taller than 15"

"Moyen" is a size or 4th standard recognized in Europe. It is somewhere between Miniature and Standard.

Jacque has 2 Moyen Poodles, bred with Std. and Mini parents, so perhaps she knows more about this.

Hope this helps!
 

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Kevin are you asking because you want to buy a breeding puppy or because the puppy you are buying has been bred via AI using the sizes you mention?

If you are considering breeding, I would find out a lot more info before I invested in the breeding dog because the time for breeding usually approaches much faster than you imagine and you have to have everyithing in place and be ready for emergency situations...

If you are asking because you are buying a puppy from a breeder who has AI'd a standard size mother with a toy sized father, yes, I think there could be problems. As Linda mentioned in an earlier post recently, the general rule is that you should not breed dogs with more than a 4 inch difference in size. Why? Because you may end up with some pretty strange bone/teeth structure (possibly internal organs too) and/or soem significant health issues realated to the size variation. I would not advise this "fast track" to minitures.

I do own two moyen Poodles, they are small standards. Larger than mini but smaller than the general standard size. Maureen is right, in Europe this is considered one of the basic sizes for Poodles. In the US they are just catching on.

I prefer breeding a small standard female Labradoodle to a Moyen Poodle male and then on the next litter downsizing to a miniture male.

I just think that nature will give some surprises when we try to make things happen too fast...and, personally, I think that is when we start getting a bad reputation as breeders...when we want to rush into the latest fad without studying or working on the possible consequences.

This discussion is actually ongoing on this forum only dealing with mating larger dogs, trying to breed long legged dogs...it is an interesting debate and I certainly don't have the answers...I just think that we ought to stick like sizing when possible, moving up or down in size gradually.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Jac said:
Kevin are you asking because you want to buy a breeding puppy or because the puppy you are buying has been bred via AI using the sizes you mention?

If you are considering breeding, I would find out a lot more info before I invested in the breeding dog because the time for breeding usually approaches much faster than you imagine and you have to have everyithing in place and be ready for emergency situations...

If you are asking because you are buying a puppy from a breeder who has AI'd a standard size mother with a toy sized father, yes, I think there could be problems. As Linda mentioned in an earlier post recently, the general rule is that you should not breed dogs with more than a 4 inch difference in size. Why? Because you may end up with some pretty strange bone/teeth structure (possibly internal organs too) and/or soem significant health issues realated to the size variation. I would not advise this "fast track" to minitures.

I do own two moyen Poodles, they are small standards. Larger than mini but smaller than the general standard size. Maureen is right, in Europe this is considered one of the basic sizes for Poodles. In the US they are just catching on.

I prefer breeding a small standard female Labradoodle to a Moyen Poodle male and then on the next litter downsizing to a miniture male.

I just think that nature will give some surprises when we try to make things happen too fast...and, personally, I think that is when we start getting a bad reputation as breeders...when we want to rush into the latest fad without studying or working on the possible consequences.

This discussion is actually ongoing on this forum only dealing with mating larger dogs, trying to breed long legged dogs...it is an interesting debate and I certainly don't have the answers...I just think that we ought to stick like sizing when possible, moving up or down in size gradually.
Thanks to all for quick and useful responses.

Question concerns buying a puppy. I am definitely NOT thinking of doing any dog breeding myself.

Dog we were looking at is F1, lab mother and toy poodle father. Answers about problems in proportion and possible bones/teeth make sense.

Am I correct that 35-40 pound adult is considered a miniature labradoodle? For an F1, how is this usually produced? Small lab mom and mini poodle? Does such a size get easier and more likely with further generations -- F1B, multigen, etc?

Thanks again for information and advice.
 

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Hi :)

I would consider 40-50 lbs to be a medium doodle...anything 35 or less I would consider mini (I think I remember hearing of some minis in the 20 lb range).

You could definitely get a 40 lb dog from 2 smaller parents (wouldn't even need to go down to a toy poodle).
 

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I would not and do not reccomend breeding a large full size to a mini. I just don't see how this could be good for the bone structure I would only do within 4 inches of the other. So like someone else mentioned you can get smaller with smaller parents it takes longer for a breeder to get what they want size wise but I would think much better for the puppies, patience is a virtue remember that!

On AI it's no different than a natural mating no concerns at all, other than the litter might be smaller if the semon isn't good.
 

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thanks for giving more details, Kevin.

I do know there are caring Doodle breeders who use Toy Poodles with Labs or Labradoodles, but none of the ones I am thinking of post on this forum regularly. However, if I wanted one of their dogs I guess I would want to see PREVIOUS, hopefully mature puppies, to allay my concerns.

Your second point is far more difficult to predict: size classifying with Labradoodles. I try to educate everyone who asks me because the way Labs and Poodles are graded, or sized is as different as their coats!

There are other current threads on this forum about Standards and this really relates. Labs are typically described or classified by WEIGHT. Poodles are classified by HEIGHT at the withers, and with a Lab component in the hybrid with an otherwise-lighter, taller breed, how does a breeder predict weight? I have never found an answer to this. Is a 45lb dog a medium sized dog? What if it is 24" tall, because its frame totally resembles a Poodle in its musculature? So when people approach me using pounds as a measurement I try to bring them around to seeing that height is a serious criterion for size that should not be overlooked.

I have had a miniature Labradoodle, who I wanted to use for breeding, and she is 16" tall, I believe. I have no idea what she weighs. But she just looks like a mini, and did come from a miniature poodle sire.

I don't mean to be arugmentative or picky but I hope this info is helpful as you consider adjusting your measurements or expectations to height, or at least keep height in mind.
 

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I think that all of the info is good...this is a good way to promote knowledge and share ideas. I don't see that any one person can be right or wrong there are so many variables...breeding is not an accurate science and we are often surprised at results, even when we do our best.
I think that Maureen's point is well taken. Height and weight are so varied. As an example, I bought siblings for my first breeding pair. They are full siblings same coloring, but one is very Labby, (short legs, boxy chest and head, weighs 65 lsb!) the other favors the Poodle side but is abou tthe same height...she is lean and trim and weighs between 45 and 55 lbs, it fluxuates because she is a picky eaer like the Poodles. They are the same height exactly, but Lexie has shorter legs and more body where Bayley has longer legs and a leaner build.
I believe that the acceptable size range is found at ALAA: http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/ALabradoodle ... ndard.html
Scroll down a little and you will see the 3 sizes, standard/medium/miniture.
 

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I think that all of the info is good...this is a good way to promote knowledge and share ideas. I don't see that any one person can be right or wrong there are so many variables...breeding is not an accurate science and we are often surprised at results, even when we do our best.
I think that Maureen's point is well taken. Height and weight are so varied. As an example, I bought siblings for my first breeding pair. They are full siblings same coloring, but one is very Labby, (short legs, boxy chest and head, weighs 65 lsb!) the other favors the Poodle side but is abou tthe same height...she is lean and trim and weighs between 45 and 55 lbs, it fluxuates because she is a picky eaer like the Poodles. They are the same height exactly, but Lexie has shorter legs and more body where Bayley has longer legs and a leaner build.
I believe that the acceptable size range is found at ALAA: http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/ALabradoodle ... ndard.html
Scroll down a little and you will see the 3 sizes, standard/medium/miniture.
Did you breed siblings from the same litter?
 

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Hi :)

I would consider 40-50 lbs to be a medium doodle...anything 35 or less I would consider mini (I think I remember hearing of some minis in the 20 lb range).

You could definitely get a 40 lb dog from 2 smaller parents (wouldn't even need to go down to a toy poodle).
I like your taste, I'm gonna try having 1 soon. Thank you so much for the info.
 
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