[Sarah]

Hi, I have not been on here for ages. But I have a quick question regarding colour: My silver/black F1 came from an all black litter, her mum is cream & her sire is chocolate! Would this mean she'll automatically carry the chocolate gene, or not :?:
She'll be ready for her first litter early next year and I have picked her out a nice chocolate poodle stud for an f1b litter, so I would really value your knowledge on colour genetics beforehand!

Also I know there is a DNA test available, but I'm in the UK and don't know how easy it would be or even if it's necessary! :?

Many thanks, Sarah :wink:

 

[momoftwo]

I'm not an expert on genetics but I don't think without testing you will know for sure if you have a chocolate gene. My dog came from a black mom and a Cafe dad. Three of his black/silver siblings were DNA tested and only one puppy of the three carried the color gene for black, creme and brown. (Thus that is the one the breeder kept from the litter as a future dam). The other two only carried black and creme. I know her other female she uses for breeding only carries creme and black not brown.

Can someone confirm that if mom doesn't carry a brown gene then the pups can't be brown? Is it a recessive?

Heather

 

[momoftwo]

Okay - I just skimmed a complex article on coloring in dogs and if I have interpretted it correctly it looks like it does take two brown genes to make a brown. If one dog provides a brown gene and the other dog doesn't the puppies will always be black. Thus if your female only carries creme and black you will never get a brown pup.

Can anyone confirm?

Heather

 

[movistar]

I pm'd you

 

[Jac]

If you want to be certain what your dog carries, you can DNA test for color. I did, and fount that my blue dogs carried black, cream/red/apricot but no brown. I found that my chocolate Poodle carried brown, cream/red/apricot but no black. Since black is dominant, we will never get brown puppies, but we can get cream/red/apricot...so far, mostly black with a few creams.
www.vetgen.com (This site also has a nice chart for color matching...but you don't know what they carry unless you test them.)
I have also posted before about an excellent book on genetics so if you do a search, it should come up and you can get the book from Amazon. It is for breeders and can be very helpful for things besides color.

 

[Tink]

Good question!
Now in the same vein, am I mistaken, or is apricot considered a dilute of chocolate? I'm thinking I read that, but can't find the article back.

 

[Sarah]

Thanks all.

Thank you all so much for your replies, it's very much appreciated! ... I must visit this forum more often!

Can someone confirm that if mom doesn't carry a brown gene then the pups can't be brown?

Yes, you are right, both parents need to carry the gene in order to produce brown pups! I didn't know this when I had my first litter, so quite happily put my cream poodle (who does not carry brown) to a choc labrador (he only carried black & choc) so of course I ended up with an all black litter. :roll: I kept one of the bitches from that litter & I always thought she would carry the choc gene because it's strong on her father's side and he is choc himself, but now I'm not so sure :?
Obviously I need to be sure because if she does not carry choc, then I'm going to use a silver stud instead (that carries cream) so i can enhance the silver colouring in the dark pups and also get some nice cream pups too (as Myrtle carries cream also!).

I think i'm going to have to DNA test for colour as I need to be sure!!! ... of course I shall let you all know the outcome! ....does anyone know how long it takes for the results??

Jac- Thanks for the info re: the book, sounds great, I will go and have look for it & order myself a copy!

Now in the same vein, am I mistaken, or is apricot considered a dilute of chocolate? I'm thinking I read that, but can't find the article back.

Yes, it's a dilute.... but whether it's a dilute of chocolate or not ?? I have not a clue .... I wouldn't have thought so though!
:?:

Thank again, Sarah :wink:

 

[gracielou]

I just got Clancys color test back and he is a Bbee YEAH he carries the black and the brown gene and cream which is also white, red, and apricot.

He is a Red St Poodle

 

[Maureen]

hi, Sarah, welcome back!
Black is like a "default" color.....your girl coming from a yellow and brown pair tells me that NEITHER of the parents carried each other's colors! But yes, all the puppies from that litter would have one copy of the "e" -yellow/apricot/cream/red gene, and one copy of the "b" which is chocolate, and would hide behind your black "B" gene. If you breed your black girl to a brown sire you should have some nice chocolates, blacks, and depending on whether the chocolate male carries yellow, you might get some of those too!

Best wishes.........

 

[seazr]

I don't breed and probably never will, but this is sure interesting! One breeder once expressed disappointment that Dakota was neutered because she said with his liver coloring, he would throw chocolates. Sounded good at the time, but now I'm thinking there's a lot more to it than a liver nose!

 

[Maureen]

Diane, genetics ALWAYS keep breeding interesting!
And yes! I would have loved to have found a stud-boy like your Dakota! He is "bbee" and only carries chocolate and yellow. With my black BbEe girl Sheba, we could have had 1/2 creams, 1/4 chocolate and 1/4 blacks in a litter!

I just got a new sweetheart, Copper, and she has a black nose, lips and eyelids, and she MIGHT carry chocolate. But if a yellow dog has a liver nose they definitely carry chocolate! I'm using a chocolate sire with her first litter, God willing, so we'll find out what colors she carries!

Here's my new girl:

 

[Guest]

Congrats Maureen! She is beautiful! I love those liver noses! And Dakota has an adorable one!!!

 

[Sarah]

Thanks for the welcome Maureen, it was very interesting reading your post The stud I have planned for next year is a brown poodle, but he carries cream & apricot also- so we could well get some cream pups! :?:

Seazr & Maureen, your doodles are both lovely, such nice colouring!! :wink:

 

[Maureen]

here's the classic VETGEN chart/link:

http://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color2.html

 

[Sarah]

Thank you :wink:

 

[Jac]

Oooh, Maureen! Beautiful! You know...Chase would give you chocolate and cream babies!

I believe that it is in the nose! If your dog has a black nose, the dominat color is black, not brown...and with a liver nose, there is no black.

That's one of the reasons why Diane's Dakota is so stunning...and coveted! We'd all love a Dakota!

But you really never know...now here is an interesting situation to prove it:
My Chase (standard chocolate Poodle, carries no black, carries cream/red/apricot) has a sister (littermate) of the same coloring, living in Nova Scotia.
I bought Rosie, and my friend (Terri Lynn) ....owner of the sister to Chase (are you following me here? LOL) bought Rosie's brother, also a littermate. They appeared to have exactly the same coloring.
Terri Lynn had 2 litters with her pair, all black puppies.
We just had our first litter with Rosie and Chase and had a litter of 12 with 3 cream, a whole bunch of carmels, and 2 blacks!
I dunno! But I am glad that we got the colors we did.

 

[seazr]

Maureen--she a beauty!!!

 

[Maureen]

Jacque you just hit the jackpot that's all there is to it!

The numbers on the vetgen chart are "statistical averages" - and you really beat the odds on Rosie's litter! But it would appear that Terri Lynn's girl does NOT carry cream, in the same way that Chase does, if she got no cream/yellow etc. puppies in her litter. I'm thinking that Chase and his sister came from a pair of chocolates, and one of the parents carries cream, and that Chase got the cream gene but his sister did not. That would be the easiest way to explain her not having any cream/gold etc. puppies in her litter. Other than that she got gypped! :wink:

My girl Copper MIGHT carry chocolate, but we'll expect to find out for sure by breeding her to my chocoloate mini, Hershey. His daddy is a red poodle, so we could have 50/50 red-to-cream, and the other half black, OR there could be some chocolate gems in there, if Copper carries it.

 

[Tink]

I'ts so interesting and seems like such a crap shoot. LOL
I can hardly wait to see what color pups we end up with since all 3 of the dogs are quite different.

I'm thinking with a black lab and an apricot that has a black nose, we're probably going to get a majority of blacks out of Canada.

With Montana being chocolate, my fingers are crossed for a nice brown and some creams, but I have visions of 2 litters of nothing but black. LOL
I'm praying for a bit of diversity, but only time will tell I guess.

 

[Lucky Me]

Okay, okay, okay!!!! I love to figure out genetics...it can drive me nutty though.
What I did catch was the part about Cream/apricot/red being the same.
If one dog is out of a black parent and a cream parent, and this dog was bred to an apricot with red genes, are you saying that you could get red babies? Both parents don't have to have red in their background?